Old metal lathe...who made it?

I just purchased my first lathe a couple of days ago. I am planning on restoring it soon. I have been searching all day yesterday trying to find out what make this one is and where I could get parts for it. Any help would be much appreciated. Martin.

Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/44767115@N04/sets/72157623131946875/

Barnes....Read up on them here: http://www.lathes.co.uk/barnes/index.html

Also search the Antique forum back pages, there is a multitude of info there too.

You are a life saver!!! Thank you so much!

Your lathe will be a challenge to "restore." It depends on how close you want to bring it back to original with the seat, pedals, legs, flywheel.

Of course Barnes sold a fair number of these lathes (either 4-1/2 or 5) as the unit you have. Usually bench mounted on short legs and driven by an overhead countershaft from the shop lineshaft. Later users provided cone pulleys and an electric motor. You can see a good setup the seller characterized as "parts" (he sold it as such) at http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/advert/ax44.htm. Take a look around his site and you'll find pix of other Barnes lathes which will whet your interest.

To bring this lathe back to the descriptions you see at above or Tony's site, expect to pay on the order of $1000 or more. Seat runs $75 (five years ago) under arm seat mount $60, three step flywheel $350, legs $100 each, pedal shaft $125, sprockets and hangers and triangular pedals more besides.

To others with lathes of similiar ilk, some on this board have suggested setting the project aside and spending money for a complete lathe ready to run for about $1000. At any particular moment you can find at least one of these on the internet, and not necessarily on Ebay. A surprising number of these Barnes lathe "orphans" can be found at major machinery dealers who buy them cheap when they buy up an entire shop lot of tools - and then resell them to their special market with appropriate mark-up.

Not critiquing the machine dealers here. Like antique dealers of a special kind, they're just capitalizing on the vagaries of the marketplace.

Anyway, you may have a special personal attachment to this lathe in particular. Bravo to you if you do and I can understand why.

Joe

The Barnes logo is cast into the legs, which is why you don't see any markings. I suspect yours is a "5" judging by the length of the bed.

nice old iron but I wonder why the top bearing support is so thin in comparison with such a wide base?

Lathe

Nice project.

wrenchhead531 said:

nice old iron but I wonder why the top bearing support is so thin in comparison with such a wide base?

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As far as I know it was designed to be a "lightweight" lathe, something for hobbyists and small shops. If you think the base is wide, look at how narrow the bed is compared to other lathes. I can pick up and carry my lathe with the legs off. The head doesn't really lack stiffness. You get more deflection from the lantern post and crosslide.

Great info! I am not attached to this lathe. I am just trying to get it to a working condition to make smaller parts for my race car (spacers, sleeves etc). I will be using an electric motor to drive it. If anyone knows where to purchase gears for this machine please let me know. Also, can you buy the babbit bearings or will I have to make them from scratch when they wear out? What a wealth of information on this forum, thank you!

I sent you a PM about gears, and mention I have some and McMaster Carr probably has some that will work.

gtfour77 said:

Great info! I am not attached to this lathe. I am just trying to get it to a working condition to make smaller parts for my race car (spacers, sleeves etc). I will be using an electric motor to drive it. If anyone knows where to purchase gears for this machine please let me know. Also, can you buy the babbit bearings or will I have to make them from scratch when they wear out? What a wealth of information on this forum, thank you!

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Don't hold me to this, but it seems to me last time I looked mine had a cast iron spindle bearing in the headstock and a bronze cone bushing on the gear end. Mine was made in 1890, but I still used it as my only lathe for a number of years. I made quite a few of those bushing and smaller parts. I had to put it away for a while to make space for my larger, newer (1940's) lathe. Last time I used my Barnes was to make replacement parts for a steering clutch rebuild for my track loader. Pic is threading new fine threaded eye bolts that I couldn't find anywhere.

nice project

Yes, that is a barnes #5 (I think). I too have a #5 that I am in the process of restoring. I am also in the process of tooling up for production of replacement parts. So if you have any needs, please let me know with a PM.

The first items in my line will be the #4 1/2 and #5 crank shaft. I should be taking orders very soon.

Your lathe most likely has both bearings in bronze. If you keep them well oiled they should provide you with years of good service. If they wear out just go see a machinist and have him turn you out a set of new bearings.

I am curious what your serial # is. Mine is stamped on the hed stock end of the bed near the botom rear portion on the end. There may be a good amount of grease hiding it.

Good Luck!

Mike

I am looking for some gears for gtfour. I have Barnes here as a reference, but it is a table top, not foot power. Never was foot power and I dont know the size. This one here has Diametric pitch (dp) 16 gears. They are odd/unique gears, with a very thin profile. My spindle gear can be swapped out like the other three, dont know if that is std or midified.

In my spare gear box, I found a number of dp 20 that look like the might fit if all three were made dp20. Dp20 are 3/8 inch wide and have bored holes around 3/4.

The dp16 in the spares box look way too heavy for so small a lathe. Assuming that mine is a No5. These gears run 1/2 thick+ with a 7/8 hole. Does not sound like much but visually it is significant.

Mike, can you tell me what your lathe, uses for change gears, and does the one on your spindle, interchange with the change gears?

Change gears for the 5 are 14DP. Change gears for the 4-1/2 are 16 DP. There is a difference in the size of the holes between a 5 and 4-1/2, with the 5 slightly larger, but I'm not sure exactly the dimensions. I can check tonight as I have a couple in both types.

The barnes gears are quite thin, perhaps 5/16". Sometimes the 16 tooth gear is "double width" allowing it's use for "compound gearing."

The spindle gear CAN be swapped out. In fact, the spindle location where it goes is "double width" for setting up compound gearing. Using a single width gear in this location usually requires an accessory collar which may or may not be present. The accessory collar has a key slot similar to the bore of the gears.

Look to your swing to determine the size of your Barnes, Peter. Measure from the centerline to the front dovetail edge of the bed and I'll compare it to my 5. A barnes 5 lists at 11" swing, and the barnes 4-1/2 lists at 9" swing. This can vary as the earlier barnes lathes (with the ribs on the headstock and tailstock casting bodies) are slightly smaller.

Barnes 5 beds are typically 5' long but it can be longer (mebbe QUITE longer) Barnes 4-1/2 are usually 4'.

Sometimes the barnes lathe beds have a "No. X" cast into the upward facing lower flange. Mine has a "No. 5". Mine is a late model 5 with allen type setscrews (probably built after 1908)

Joe

Barnes No. 5 gear is .686 hole with a 1/8th keyway about 1/8 deep. .445 thick

Barnes No 4-1/2 gear is .591 hole with the same keyway. .375 thick

Barnes No. 5 bed is 5-1/4" over the "horns" of the dovetail. 5-3/4" from the corner of the dovetail to the center point of the tailstock.

Joe

I kind of doubt that your lathe was always a bench lathe as the barnes bench lathes all had stubby legs so they could sit on the mench and the gears could clear. The thread change chart was mounted on the headstock leg.

As far as a complete set of gears you will need the following;

QTY TEETH
2 16
1 20
1 24
1 27
1 28
1 30
1 32
1 36
1 40
1 44
1 46
1 48
1 52
1 104

Hope this helps
Mike

I also got some oddball stuff that does not go with my lathe including some gears made by Boston Gear. They are similar in size but a different DP. They have 2 keyways as well.

My point is that these things after 80-100+ years end up loosing an gaining stuff. Likely my extra gears and yours have nothing to do with the lathe. As far as your lathe never being foot powered. All of the lathes I have seen shown in Barnes catalogs came with foot power and the countershaft was a 15.00 up charge. I am fairly certain the lathe would still have been shiped with its foot power parts.

Mike

Mike,

Are you confusing me with GTfour? I do have a bench top mounted metal lathe by WF Barnes, yes stubby legs and all. Based on input from Joe, I have a 4 1/2. I dont want to post pics in this thread, since it is GTfour looking for help with what maybe a No5. I dont want to distract from that. Pics of other No5 might be helpful.

I dont know, have we established what size gtfour has? I was just assuming 5.

I should clarify, my 'spare' gears, and other spare parts, have nothing to do with my Barnes any more or less than any other builder that has passed my way over the years. I just have a lot of parts, generically speaking - parts, stuff.

I would not go out of my way to acquire a foot power machine, it has happened a few times. Currently have a Shepard for example. None of these foot power metal working machines make any sense to me, cute as they maybe, they are not my cup-o-tea.

I know what you mean about interesting stuff coming with old machines, my Barnes had some 1870's, 1880's patented tooling, tailstock turret, etc.

If your No5, has some Boston gears, not 14 pitch, that might be a good guide for us to get gtfour setup. He does not need to do threading just looking to get some practical slow feeds rates. Can you suggest tooth/pitch combos that might get there, using boston gears?

Edit: I just looked, there is a thread chart on my head stock, it even says 4 1/2, FWIW. I guess, I would have to do more homework to make a definite stmt, that is was driven from overhead vs under. You are saying, all Barnes lathes were foot power, no exception? I dont see the need for those stubby short legs if it was driven from below?

Barnes offered foot power (within that both velocipede and treadle), line shaft driven leg mounted lathes as well as bench tops in some models. In their 1919 catalog, they offered the 4 1/2, 5 and 13 in what they referred to as a bench lathe.

I have a 4 1/2 bench model and she is cute. You could get a counter shaft that allowed for forward and reverse and they even gave specs on the speed that shaft had to operate.

From what I have seen, Barnes continued offering metal lathes long after they dropped the foot powered option. The legs on these line shaft driven models were positoned at the very end of the bed versus being inset some for the foot powered versions to allow for a flywheel on the foot powered versions.

The basis for my website is up and I am in the process of adding content. It is supposed to snow this weekend in central NC so hopefully I will get some time. There will be a lot of info including pictures, facts, specs, catalogs, etc on all mfgs and especially on Barnes. Will let everyone know shortly!

Hope this helps.

Thanks Ed

What speed does Barnes say that countershaft should run at?

To others with lathes of similiar ilk, some on this board have suggested setting the project aside and spending money for a complete lathe ready to run for about $1000.

Click to expand...

Currently there is a pretty complete 4-1/2 Barnes on Ebay for $995 as a "buy it now" by Lost Creek Machine. See http://cgi.ebay.com/F-J-Barnes-No-4...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2eaab2a065 (no connection.)

Joe