Need help w/ Clausing Colchester

Jess10ee · Nov 2, 2009

Hi all,

Have a Clausing / Colchester lathe that is new to me, and have not been able to get it to run yet.

It came in set up for 208 v / three phase - I verified the wiring at the motor for this voltage, and the control transformer is set properly and putting out 105 volts versus 120 volts placarded. Could this be the problem?

Anyway, checked voltage to momentary start switch, and its putting out voltage when pressed - but the voltage drags down to 88 volts and nothing happens (I would expect to hear a relay or contactor make)?

I've got the manual for this machine, but am having trouble getting a readable scan of the wiring diagram, but I'll try to attach it here.

Thanks for any help / suggestions.

Jess10ee · Nov 3, 2009

Additional Info.:

Additional Info.:

I am supplying this machine with genuine 208 volt 3 phase from the local electrical utility. It tends to actually measure about 215 volts phase to phase. When I manually actuate the motor contactor (C1 in the drawing), the motor spins up just fine, and is phased to run in the proper direction per the manual. Manually actuating the brake contactor also applies the brake. Manually actuating C2 does not cause anything to happen (that I can determine).

Link to wiring diagram and photos of the electrical installation: LINK

peterh5322 · Nov 3, 2009

Control transformers are designed with a significant surge capacity.

You are supplying 208 to your machine. Likely, it was designed for 240.

With 240 into the control transformer, I would expect to find 120 out.

With 208 into that transformer, I would expect to find 104 out, just as you found 105 out.

That that transformer is sagging to 88 volts is most likely the problem.

Replace the control transformer with one which has primary taps of at least 208 and 240, and a secondary of 120 and your problem will be solved.

Jess10ee · Nov 3, 2009

Thanks Peter...

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the input. I think I need to do some wire tracing and recheck what I've reported so far. There are two loose wires located to the left of the upper contactor (labeled c1) that are stripped and not joined or terminated, I think I need to figure out where they're supposed to be. The control transformer has taps for 208 and for 240 (as well as 480 and 575!), I'm on the 208 taps, and measuring 215 across those two. The control transformer also has a separate output labeled 120, and it indeed is outputting 120. This is not the fused output - it is still showing 104 when in the circuit - but 120 when output to the fuse is disconnected from the rest of the circuit (possibly more signs of a weak xformer?). In the pictures you can see a transformer at the bottom - its not in the diagram, looks like it was added to feed an aux. receptacle, and it measures 120 out.

There is a limit switch that is supposed to detect the absence of the upper cover and open the control circuit - it is not functional - PO has crimped it in made position.

Just as a test, I may give a try to that lower transformer substituted for the original and see what the results might be.

If no joy there, a complete wire traceout may be in my future.

Thanks for the help and suggestion.

Jess10ee · Nov 4, 2009

Hmmm, somethings' not quite right...

Hi all,

Replaced the control transformer, now have 118 volts out between the low voltage terminals of the transformer. Still no improvement as far as operation, though.

Chasing a few wires - not finding them to seem to match the drawing - I have seen some machines where the drawing was different than the installation before. Or maybe I'm making a wrong ID of a component.

The wires I've chased so far look for all the world to have been factory installed - tinned and terminated in ring terminals and routed 'just so' through a factory loom. They don't seem to have been modified or moved.

I may have to try to understand as much as I can about how this machines' control circuit was intended to operate in order to get further in troubleshooting it.

The switch panel on the front had definitely been fooled with - the screw securing its box was missing and the panel was physically floating a bit secured only by the thin face plate. The connections inside it all look original, but all screws were loose, I retorqued them all (as well as all terminals I could access inside the main electrical box. The wiring inside the sw box all looks original, too, though.

peterh5322 · Nov 4, 2009

118 volts is ever so much better than 88 volts.

It's fortunate that the control transformer has taps for 240, 480 and 600 volts (nominal) ... all the "usual suspect" commercial/industrial voltages.

I presume the motor's controller, called "Main" in the schematic, is actually a reversing magnetic motor starter, with only one contact set being shown.

The control, as diagrammed, is a "three-wire control station with some added features, such as the brake.

I suspect an intermittent connection, or an inadvertent miswire.

Jess10ee · Nov 4, 2009

Some Add'l Info, Pic

In this case C1 main does only have one set of contacts, as this machine's motor only runs in one direction - "anti-clockwise as viewed from the headstock end". Guess it keeps the oil pump from cavitating, etc. Checking for this proper phasing is one of the installation tasks.

Decided to try an experiment, so I jumpered the 118 volts control voltage straight to C1 Main's A1 coil connection, result is C1 makes and motor runs just fine. Also operated the apron spindle control while it was running and found that it goes forward, brakes and goes in reverse just as it should. I was glad to see / hear it run nice in all speeds and feeds. Actually, the rapidity with which this machine can get to 2500 rpm forward, then dead stop, then 2500 rpm reverse is kind of spooky!

Anyway, without this jumper, I still have my problem. I suspect the PO was running it this way with an auxiliary switch. No control from front panel switches...still looking for my miswire or bad connection, any suggestions greatly appreciated.

JST · Nov 4, 2009

Just for grins, have you checked the main motor's overload?

If you look, you will find it is (supposed to be) wired in series with the on/off, "sealing" contact, and C1. If by chance it didn't get connected, is bad, etc, etc, you won't get jack for voltage and nothing will work.

Have you gone around and measured voltage to common on all the points from the transformer to C1?

stevea2003 · Nov 7, 2009

It seems you have a control circuit problem.
The start switch should pull in the contactor for the motor in so if you are not hearing it click in there is a problem with the control wiring.
I would suspect since you said there was power when you pressed the switch there must be another switch between the contactor and the start switch or the wire is not connected some place. I would take the switch apart and verify that the continuity is correct. From the drawing it appears that the stop switch is normally closed and the forward and reverse switches are normally open
I am not familiar with your lathe so I can't really help to much there.

stevea2003 · Nov 8, 2009

It seems you have a control circuit problem.
The start switch should pull in the contactor for the motor in so if you are not hearing it click in there is a problem with the control wiring.
I would suspect since you said there was power when you pressed the switch there must be another switch between the contactor and the start switch or the wire is not connected some place. I would take the switch apart and verify that the continuity is correct. From the drawing it appears that the stop switch is normally closed and the forward and reverse switches are normally open
I am not familiar with your lathe so I can't really help to much there.

Jess10ee · Nov 10, 2009

Still working on it...

JST - OL1 looks good.

Where is the sealing contact?

I'm using the point / connection labeled '0' on the low voltage side of the control transformer as common.

I'm getting 118 volts from the following: OL1 points 95 and 96, PB1 points 21 and 22, PB2 point 13.

Also 118 volts to C3, point 23 (I think - this contactor is not labeled correctly as to connection points).

I have not dug my way down to 3b1 switch yet, but it seemed to be working when I jumpered power straight to C1 point A1 in my earlier test.

A side note - my common point on the transformer shows about 42 volts to ground.

Stevea2003 -

The start switch is a NO momentary switch and 3b1 looks to be the NO spindle forward and reverse switches. These three switches seem to be OK, but I'm digging my way down to 3b1 right now.

Thanks for the help, folks.

Any good references (web sites and / or books) for this type of equipment - (3 wire controls, motor starters, etc.)? I looked at the local library, but everything I found jumps straight into digital logic control, PLC, etc.

Jess10ee · Nov 13, 2009

BTT and Questions....

Hi all,
Still working this problem...

I've got some questions if any gurus are game.....?

1. Anyone have an opinion on whether that common floating 40 volts above ground is a problem or indicator of anything I should be looking for?

2. Where is the sealing contact on this diagram?

3. Any good books or web references that might shed some light on this 3 wire control and its components? Everything I've found so far just jumps straight into PLC and electronic control. This seems more electrical based.

Thanks for any help.

Bill's Machine Shop · Nov 13, 2009

There is a book out there written by a man who was a teacher of electrical trades in Brooklyn NY. Second edition was published in 1969. Semiconductors were in their infancy back then, and many control circuits were electro-mechanical. The book Is entitled "Electric Motor Repair". Author is Robert Rosenberg. I open mine up just about every time I go into a machine with an electrical problem. You will never regret investing in this reference. Here's a link to a book seller.
\
http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?q...or=Robert+Rosenberg&cm_sp=works*listing*title

WWQ

JST · Nov 13, 2009

Sealing contact is C1 , terminals 13 & 16, per the diagram. right next to PB2

if you push the start button, PB2, AND 3b1 is closed, C1 should pull in, starting the motor.

The "sealing contact" C1 (13,16), adjacent to PB2, should close, holding IN C1 until the power is removed by PB1, "stop".

I see nothing labeled as reverse...... and no reversing contactor. 3B1 seems to be a limit switch that sets the brake and stops the spindle.

If 3B1 is open, C1 won't pull in.

if any wires are messed jup, C1 may not pull in.

You know C1 is good, it worked when you bypassed the otehr stuff.

1) Push PB2 and verify how much farther voltage gets. it won't get to A1 of C1 because if it did C1 would pull in.

If PB2 and 3b1 were good, and the sealing contact C1 (13,16) was bad, it would start, but not stay in.

You don't get that, so either PB2 is bad, or a wire is bad, or 3b1 is bad. You can check PB2 easily, even with power off, using an ohmmeter.

After that, you probably will have to check 3b1, and if no joy there, start in on the wiring.

Electric controls like this are really quite simple, almost like plumbing...... you can figure them out.

Another cheerful note:
None of us know that the wiring really is now what the diagram shows. All sorts of things may or may not have been done to it by previous owners. My experience is that previous owners are generally either clueless, or didn't have time to do it right..... be suspicious.

Jess10ee · Nov 14, 2009

Thanks for the help!

Thanks much for the help guys.

Bill's - I ordered a copy of that book, thanks for recommending it.

JST - thanks for the help. The wiring on this machine was really quality from the factory, but it lacks some things you wish you had - some of the wiring is marked with numbers, much of it is not. C3's markings do not seem to correspond with the print,it may have been changed, but it is the same brand as the others - 'Klockner Moeller' or some such, I'd have to be looking at it to spell it right.

Thanks for the reminder to be suspicious, I think some things are definitely not to print here, trying to figure out how to get this control right.

I'll try to sort this problem with your new suggestions in mind, see where I get, and report back.

Thanks again very much for the help.

FDK III Company · Mar 14, 2010

Hi,

If you ever need any parts for your Colchester lathe, I can help. I have new and refurbished parts for those lathes. My name is Frank Kleinworth with FDK 3 Company in Houston. You can e-mail me at [email protected] or call me at 877-335-8665.
I can also tell you how old your lathe is.

Thanks,

Frank

toolnut · Mar 16, 2010

Jess,

Let me know what model colchester you have. I may be able to help with some parts as i am getting ready to part out a 13 x 24 colchester mark II, flat top, L0 spindle nose. Mine has the two speed motor and all the electricals work very well. I am needing parts to fix my 13 x 36 Colchester Mark II so i will take them from the 13 x 24 then start selling parts. I hope to do this in the next month.

You have my phone number.

Bruce

precision700 · Jul 1, 2011

Hi guys. I ran across this thread while looking for a solution to my problem. My Colchester 2500 built in 1988 is having the exact same problem. I get all the same voltage readings, and the motor turns when the contactor is pushed in manually. I see that the thread came to an end without the final outcome. I was wondering if anyone knows what causes this, and what I can do to make my lathe turn again. Thank you.

hitandmiss · Jul 1, 2011

If you have a foot brake make sure it is UP, and not held down by "stuff" or has a broken spring.

Bill

precision700 · Jul 2, 2011

Thank you Bill, but I don't have a foot brake, or a limit switch on the control panel door. I'm sure it is a simple fix, if only I knew what it is that's wrong. To make it worse, I don't know who in this giant city knows how to trouble shoot it. I'm sure there is someone in Miami that can. I would be only too happy to pay someone for the service.

Need help w/ Clausing Colchester

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