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New Haas UMC 350 Models Coming Out Soon

So mods, yeah post count would help weed out the obvious new salesman...
Holy crap.... I didn't realize there were so many prics in here.

I am not a Haas salesman. I'm a Mechanical Engineer with specializations in design for manufacturing (DFM) and manufacturing processes as well as the lead programmer and setup machinist in our shop.

I posted info about the UMC 350 machine because I was excited to see it for five reasons, and I thought other people would be too:
1. I want to get into 5-axis and don't have the right kind of customers/parts, yet, to justify getting into one of the larger 5-axis machines that I would really like, like a Doosan DVF with Heidenhain control, a DMG Mori DMU 3rd Gen (if their tech support/service is decent in my area because I've read some horror stories from you guys about DMG after their merger with Deckel Maho), or some other brand. A Grob for example would be sweeeet. The smaller size of the UMC 350 will command a smaller price, one closer to a standard 3-axis vertical that I can much more easily justify as I'm not running a huge shop yet. We purchased our first machine just last November.
2. The small size/footprint will make it much easier to fit in the limited space we have available in our current building.
3. Finally having a 5-axis machine will open up new work that we can't do/get outbid on because we're currently forced to machine with multiple setups instead of the 2-3 setups I could do with a 5-axis (Op 1, Op 2, and maybe an Op 0 dovetail depending on the part), and getting started on those kind of parts will open up the possibility of getting one of the other machines I listed above, which I might point out, none of which are made by Haas.
4. Because the machine is the same size as the DT-1/DM-1 there are automation options already out on the market that we can use in the future to let the machine grow with us and get more productivity with it.
5. Having the Haas control will let my operators, current and future, (who already know the Haas control) get used to the new aspects of 5-axis machining without learning a new control at the same. Then when we can get a bigger, better machine (again, a different brand OTHER than Haas) they'll only have to learn the new control and have most, if not all, of the other 'tips and tricks' down when it comes to making 5-axis parts.

From a simple design perspective alone I love how much more rigid a machine like the Doosan BVM 5700 or Okuma Genos M560-V is. I'd love to have one of those machines on my floor for it's capabilities alone, and as an engineer I recognize and respect the superior design/performance built in. Heck, even a Doosan DNM with a single column like a Haas vertical kicks the crap out of Haas where rigidity and build are concerned. No question about it those are better machines than the VF-2SS on our floor right now. Eventually I'd love to have a floor of machines from the 'upper tier' of MTB's, but the reality is we currently can't afford or justify that and I believe the UMC 350HD is a machine that will help us get there, the same way Haas machines have helped 1,000's of shops and people (most of you included I would assume) get to where they are now.

But what do I know, apparently I'm just a Haas salesman.......:rolleyes5:
 
is a machine that will help us get there, the same way Haas machines have helped 1,000's of shops and people (most of you included I would assume) get to where they are now.

Doesn't seem like an accurate assumption to me. I would say Haas is in maybe 30% of shops. Sure there are all Haas shops, but I see more no-Haas-whatsoever shops.
 
Doesn't seem like an accurate assumption to me. I would say Haas is in maybe 30% of shops. Sure there are all Haas shops, but I see more no-Haas-whatsoever shops.
I'm not saying absolutely every shop started out with Haas machines, but I assume that a majority of shops have used at least a Haas machine or two to help them get to where they are, even if they're at the point they could get rid of all of their Haas's for better/more capable machines. If I'm wrong about that I'm willing to admit it, but given the lower cost and good value compared to other MTB's I feel I can safely assume Haas helped more shops get started/get to where they are than pretty much any other brand.
 
Holy crap.... I didn't realize there were so many prics in here.

I am not a Haas salesman. I'm a Mechanical Engineer with specializations in design for manufacturing (DFM) and manufacturing processes as well as the lead programmer and setup machinist in our shop.

I posted info about the UMC 350 machine because I was excited to see it for five reasons, and I thought other people would be too:
1. I want to get into 5-axis and don't have the right kind of customers/parts, yet, to justify getting into one of the larger 5-axis machines that I would really like, like a Doosan DVF with Heidenhain control, a DMG Mori DMU 3rd Gen (if their tech support/service is decent in my area because I've read some horror stories from you guys about DMG after their merger with Deckel Maho), or some other brand. A Grob for example would be sweeeet. The smaller size of the UMC 350 will command a smaller price, one closer to a standard 3-axis vertical that I can much more easily justify as I'm not running a huge shop yet. We purchased our first machine just last November.
2. The small size/footprint will make it much easier to fit in the limited space we have available in our current building.
3. Finally having a 5-axis machine will open up new work that we can't do/get outbid on because we're currently forced to machine with multiple setups instead of the 2-3 setups I could do with a 5-axis (Op 1, Op 2, and maybe an Op 0 dovetail depending on the part), and getting started on those kind of parts will open up the possibility of getting one of the other machines I listed above, which I might point out, none of which are made by Haas.
4. Because the machine is the same size as the DT-1/DM-1 there are automation options already out on the market that we can use in the future to let the machine grow with us and get more productivity with it.
5. Having the Haas control will let my operators, current and future, (who already know the Haas control) get used to the new aspects of 5-axis machining without learning a new control at the same. Then when we can get a bigger, better machine (again, a different brand OTHER than Haas) they'll only have to learn the new control and have most, if not all, of the other 'tips and tricks' down when it comes to making 5-axis parts.

From a simple design perspective alone I love how much more rigid a machine like the Doosan BVM 5700 or Okuma Genos M560-V is. I'd love to have one of those machines on my floor for it's capabilities alone, and as an engineer I recognize and respect the superior design/performance built in. Heck, even a Doosan DNM with a single column like a Haas vertical kicks the crap out of Haas where rigidity and build are concerned. No question about it those are better machines than the VF-2SS on our floor right now. Eventually I'd love to have a floor of machines from the 'upper tier' of MTB's, but the reality is we currently can't afford or justify that and I believe the UMC 350HD is a machine that will help us get there, the same way Haas machines have helped 1,000's of shops and people (most of you included I would assume) get to where they are now.

But what do I know, apparently I'm just a Haas salesman.......:rolleyes5:
if you dont have the cashflow for a doosan 5 axis, i honestly wouldnt bother with haas. the amount of workarounds you have to implement to get decent 5 axis parts out of them isnt gonna make you more money than just doing multiple setups in a 3 axis. doosan and okuma are orders of magnitude better than any haas 5 axis offering, and not that much more money.
 
hold up... they're actually just bolting on a TRT100 on this bitch?

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

what a piece of turd

Would it be more rigid if it was directly integrated into the machine? Yes, from a design perspective I'm 99.9% sure it would, but this setup actually makes a lot of sense for a few reasons.

1. I imagine this machine is going to be advertised to shops looking to get into 5-axis. If so, they're going to have a learning curve which is probably going to involve a couple crashes. If a crash is bad enough then your operator or setup guy could realign the machine themselves without needing an expensive tech from your HFO to come by just to make sure your machine is good to run again. Designing a weaker point in the system allows that point to be the failure point so more expensive/harder to replace components aren't the ones taking the beating.
2. Using products/parts they already produce eases everything on the business side of things (logistics, design, service, training, etc.) and helps them sell the machine at a lower price, again, helping their customers get into 5-axis.

Now maybe I'm totally wrong on their strategy and if so I'll eat my words, but this machine certainly has a place in the industry, and I think it's going to sell amazingly well if they've priced it right. Is the UMC 350 going to be as good as a Brother Speedio or something? Not a chance. Is it going to be as fast or as capable as a Fanuc Robodrill? Nope. Is it going to be a really good machine for shops wanting to get into 5-axis though? Heck yes. And it will do it with a control they're already extremely likely to know and come with the service/parts support they need.
 
Would it be more rigid if it was directly integrated into the machine? Yes, from a design perspective I'm 99.9% sure it would, but this setup actually makes a lot of sense for a few reasons.

1. I imagine this machine is going to be advertised to shops looking to get into 5-axis. If so, they're going to have a learning curve which is probably going to involve a couple crashes. If a crash is bad enough then your operator or setup guy could realign the machine themselves without needing an expensive tech from your HFO to come by just to make sure your machine is good to run again. Designing a weaker point in the system allows that point to be the failure point so more expensive/harder to replace components aren't the ones taking the beating.
2. Using products/parts they already produce eases everything on the business side of things (logistics, design, service, training, etc.) and helps them sell the machine at a lower price, again, helping their customers get into 5-axis.

Now maybe I'm totally wrong on their strategy and if so I'll eat my words, but this machine certainly has a place in the industry, and I think it's going to sell amazingly well if they've priced it right. Is the UMC 350 going to be as good as a Brother Speedio or something? Not a chance. Is it going to be as fast or as capable as a Fanuc Robodrill? Nope. Is it going to be a really good machine for shops wanting to get into 5-axis though? Heck yes. And it will do it with a control they're already extremely likely to know and come with the service/parts support they need.
you know what, you're right. go ahead and get one. sometimes people just need to make the mistakes themselves before realizing they should have listened to someone that's already made them.
 
if you dont have the cashflow for a doosan 5 axis, i honestly wouldnt bother with haas. the amount of workarounds you have to implement to get decent 5 axis parts out of them isnt gonna make you more money than just doing multiple setups in a 3 axis. doosan and okuma are orders of magnitude better than any haas 5 axis offering, and not that much more money.
Exactly, I've heard horror stories about the stuff guys have to do to make their UMC 500's, 750's, etc. make accurate parts. I'm not interested in getting a UMC 500 or any of its bigger brothers precisely because I've read so much of that. That's part of why I'm preemptively excited about the UMC 350 is because it's built off a different frame/design. It's based on the 3-axis table design that Haas has made for decades compared to their 5-axis machines that they've only had a few years of experience with. There won't be that much 'new' stuff to figure out. Plus the fact that the smaller travels of the smaller machine will kinematically be easier to control gives me high hopes, but like all things, I guess time will tell.
 
you know what, you're right. go ahead and get one. sometimes people just need to make the mistakes themselves before realizing they should have listened to someone that's already made them.
Care to elaborate on what mistakes you've made? I'm genuinely, sincerely asking. I came to this forum to learn from the collective experience of guys who have done this much longer than me, so if there's some info or experience you'd like to share I'd love to hear.
 
Exactly, I've heard horror stories about the stuff guys have to do to make their UMC 500's, 750's, etc. make accurate parts. I'm not interested in getting a UMC 500 or any of its bigger brothers precisely because I've read so much of that. That's part of why I'm preemptively excited about the UMC 350 is because it's built off a different frame/design. It's based on the 3-axis table design that Haas has made for decades compared to their 5-axis machines that they've only had a few years of experience with. There won't be that much 'new' stuff to figure out. Plus the fact that the smaller travels of the smaller machine will kinematically be easier to control gives me high hopes, but like all things, I guess time will tell.
what makes you think the 350 will be any better? if anything, its WORSE because the TRT's are stepper motor driven, less accurate, less responsive and smooth than the larger umc variants.
then there's the control, which is AWFUL for 5 axis. extremely rudimentary and limited in its capabilities. if you dont give a shit about efficiency and productivity at all, and dont mind spending 2-3x the time it would take to make any part on a machine like a doosan or okuma or anything else more high end - then sure, you'll still make parts.
 
machines, but I assume that a majority of shops have used at least a Haas machine or two to help them get to where they are
I do not believe that to be true at all.

A lot of folks know Haas is kinda shitty, older stuff really shitty. Many start out with machines from high end MTB's. They buy them used and don't need to save up to upgrade to something better. They just turn the rapids up.
 
Exactly, I've heard horror stories about the stuff guys have to do to make their UMC 500's, 750's, etc. make accurate parts. I'm not interested in getting a UMC 500 or any of its bigger brothers precisely because I've read so much of that. That's part of why I'm preemptively excited about the UMC 350 is because it's built off a different frame/design. It's based on the 3-axis table design that Haas has made for decades compared to their 5-axis machines that they've only had a few years of experience with. There won't be that much 'new' stuff to figure out. Plus the fact that the smaller travels of the smaller machine will kinematically be easier to control gives me high hopes, but like all things, I guess time will tell.
You do realize that UMC 350 has a travelling spindle right? ....Something Haas has never done before. And certainly isn't in their DM/DT series machines. That means the entire casting is different. This is another look at me machine from haas just like that VMT-750. Which on a good day was bad and on an average day awful. I'd steer far clear of this if I were you, Haas doesn't have a good reputation with any of their new offerings...

Save your money and buy a better machine, even the most garbage machine from any of the other MTB's mentioned are better than the best haas.

The U500 from brother will blow the doors off one of these and probably end up costing about the same.

Ultimately you have to realize that any full 5th machine worth it's salt is gonna set you back at least 300k... really no way around it.
 
You do realize that UMC 350 has a travelling spindle right? ....Something Haas has never done before. And certainly isn't in their DM/DT series machines. That means the entire casting is different. This is another look at me machine from haas just like that VMT-750. Which on a good day was bad and on an average day awful. I'd steer far clear of this if I were you, Haas doesn't have a good reputation with any of their new offerings...

Save your money and buy a better machine, even the most garbage machine from any of the other MTB's mentioned are better than the best haas.

The U500 from brother will blow the doors off one of these and probably end up costing about the same.

Ultimately you have to realize that any full 5th machine worth it's salt is gonna set you back at least 300k... really no way around it.
Oh man, that's a good point, I hadn't thought about how the casting would have to be different for the moving spindle, I was just thinking of the base/table. If that's the case then my being hopeful was pretty much for sure preemptive. If the casting is similar to the UMC 500, 750, etc. and not the 'tried and true' 3-axis table layout then I don't see the frame doing what I would hope from a rigidity standpoint.

*Sigh*..... if only these awesome machines didn't cost so much. I really want to get into that tier of work, both for our customers and products we ourselves are developing. We'll see how it goes I guess but my assumption is you're right Crossthread82, I probably should save for the machine I really want anyways.
 
Oh man..... I missed the platter dimensions the first time around. Yeah, a 3.94" platter on a 15" x 14" X,Y travel machine suuucks. And the TRT100 rotary that the table is based on says it has a weight limit of only 15 lbs. Add fixture weight to that and you're not going to be able to put a very big part in there at all. 'Dead air' for sure.

The platter on the UMC 350HD makes more sense though with a 9.10" platter and a 200 lbs. weight limit. Honestly if they're trying to use similar components to products they already have like their rotaries (which totally makes sense from a business logistics and cost perspective) then they should have gone with at least the TRT210 'base' for both machines, or maybe a bigger platter like the TRT310 with its 12.20" platter size and 275 lbs. weight limit. Much better use of table space/travel. On the one hand I could understand them not wanting to step on their own sales toes by making the platter too close in size to the UMC 500 line, but that platter is just under 20" so that doesn't make much sense to me. At the very least the two machines should have the same rotary, either the TRT210 or TRT310, but the TRT100 sized platter makes no sense.
The tr100 platter selection make it remind me of the dmg20 Liner machines. Highly specialized IMO.
They shoulda went with the 160 as a small/fast and a 210 for the HD. Then they would not compete with the 500.

I’m pretty sure apples to apples a vf2 with a 150-210trunnion the total bill comes out about the same as the 500 base no? Those needed options add up!!

Either way there putting in a pretty wimpy spindle. Only 15hp 45(ish) torque.
I’ll have to look at the curves but it’s funny, my “20haaspower” 2009 vf2 has the “high speed” 10,000 option and same torque.

If the price is right they will be a neat/compact machine.
 
If a shop is learning and doesn't know much about 5ax, the last thing they'll be able to do is realign after a smack.
It's not like a vice or even a 4th....
BINGO! if a joe schmoe knows enough to realign a 5 axis machine and set MRZP correctly, he aint no beginner, and he's not gonna like working on a POS like haas.
 
Oh man, that's a good point, I hadn't thought about how the casting would have to be different for the moving spindle, I was just thinking of the base/table. If that's the case then my being hopeful was pretty much for sure preemptive. If the casting is similar to the UMC 500, 750, etc. and not the 'tried and true' 3-axis table layout then I don't see the frame doing what I would hope from a rigidity standpoint.

*Sigh*..... if only these awesome machines didn't cost so much. I really want to get into that tier of work, both for our customers and products we ourselves are developing. We'll see how it goes I guess but my assumption is you're right Crossthread82, I probably should save for the machine I really want anyways.
there's a reason they cost as much as they do...
it took the MTB's decades of refining the product to the point where its efficient and produces reliable results. i'm sure you dont like working for free either right?
 
@empower, I just saw the video you posted on the 'Haas UMC500 = biggest flop i've ever seen' thread. Yikes!! No wonder you've got a bad taste in your mouth for Haas 5-axis, that machine was terrible!
 
@empower, I just saw the video you posted on the 'Haas UMC500 = biggest flop i've ever seen' thread. Yikes!! No wonder you've got a bad taste in your mouth for Haas 5-axis, that machine was terrible!
and that was only 1 of the several UMC's i've worked with at different shops, they all sucked big fat cawk!
their 3 axis machines are plenty fine for most people, they've got a LONG way to go with their 5 axis offerings - provided they actually try to make them better, which as of now i dont see happening. clearly they just want to push shit out the door as fast as possible without a care about how well it works.
 
If you want to get your feet wet in 5 axis and don't have enough parts lined up to keep a 5 axis busy yet, just get a VF or VM and slap a trunnion on it. You get a platform that's mature and debugged, as opposed to being a beta tester. Plus you have a bunch of 3 axis table space for 3 axis jobs, stock prep, and second ops, and can option it with plenty of tools etc.
 
Holy crap.... I didn't realize there were so many prics in here.

I am not a Haas salesman. I'm a Mechanical Engineer with specializations in design for manufacturing (DFM) and manufacturing processes as well as the lead programmer and setup machinist in our shop.
Yet you just had dozens of people tell you from an engineering standpoint why this machine doesn't make sense and why Haas is junk. Best piece of advice I can give you; If you do make your own product, have an accurate forecast(backlogged years?) , then you would be an absolute moron not to buy something more top tier just from the ROI standpoint. Sure if are a job shop I can see the hesitance, I really can, but anything more do not buy Haas for that level of work. Hell, sounds like you are already ahead of most shops on the setup front so you must be doing something right!

Ps- Keep Haas, but for entry level machining for training purposes and on simple parts. I would look into Mazak. New controller (smooth G) can run EIA code and is awesome to use even compared to Haas. Also linear guides so price point should be just a nudge higher. Some used ones at auction coming up that aren't very old at all.
 








 
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