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10ee spindle removal

Since there seems to be some confusion as to the overflow passage that I'm referring to, I went ahead and marked up the single-reservoir headstock drawing to reflect how the front headstock overflow passage seems to be set up in the three-reservoir square-dials:

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The overflow passage is shown in cyan (light blue). It runs from the hole at 6 O'clock in the front bearing retainer plate (EE-1188, shown in magenta), underneath the front bearing reservoir and leads into the center reservoir. The red line shows the approximate oil level. Note that if the radial grooves in EE-1188 are not in contact with the outer race of the bearing, oil can drain out the bottom of the front bearing. It appears to me that a field replacement gasket (as suggested) is a bad idea, as it could increase the spacing, keeping EE-1188 from contacting the bearing, and cause just such a leak (as well as changing the pre-load on the bearings). Note that there is a gasket (part number EE-2621) between the front bearing retainer and the headstock; the gasket can be seen in Peter's picture.

I've colored the fixed portion of the front slinger (26118) green. The O-ring (1191-46) is red. The moving half of the slinger (26119) is blue. I'm not sure why the overflow passage was necessary, as any excess oil should drain out between the two halves of the slinger. Any thoughts?

Cal
Just a quick footnote to all this: I was going through my photo archive and noticed that even Sundstrand drive machines have the passage in the front bearing retainer and matching hole in the headstock casting. It appears that the overflow passage, as shown in the diagram above, goes all the way back to the earliest machines.

Cal
 
"The lathe is serial number 46652, manufactured in Feb of '64 "

Wow, must be my lathe's older sibling! My Serial # is 46681 built in July, 1964

Tim in D
 
Hey guys,

Thanks for your help and suggestions. Got the lathe back together -- it's nice to have it back up and running. It's been over a week, and no leaks!!

There are a few things I learned that might be helpful to anyone else doing the same job:

The puller worked just fine for a re-installation. With a light coat of oil on the bearing bores in the headstock, everything slid right back into place.

After some thought about repainting or replacing the aluminum sight glass disks, I decided to put them back as they were. Happy with the decision for now. I did polish the lenses with polishing compound with made a big difference.

Emptying, flushing and refilling all of the headstock and reduction drive reservoirs was long over due. The bearing reservoir for the rear bearing had a rust sludge in the bottom. Water may have collected here in the past, although it seems like the bearings were in good condition. The rear reservoir would be very difficult to flush without removing the spindle. Removing the sight glass would be a help.

To stop the rear bearing reservoir from leaking, I applied a bead of permetex in the corner of the brass bushing EE2888, (sort of a 'smile' of permetex), and re-installed the bushing. So far, so good. This is far enough from the bearings that I have some confidence they will not ingest any permetex.

I did put a thin coat of permetex on the paper gaskets as I re-assembled everything, although I left the cork gaskets uncoated. I couldn't put them back in without something on them. Old habits die hard. Bill, was it your suggestion to leave them uncoated? Probably the right thing, I just couldn't do it.

To re-install the o-ring seal on the front oil retainer (part 26188), I pushed the retainer through the bore so the o-ring groove was accessible from inside the gear box, installed the o-ring and pushed the retainer back towards the tail stock. When the spindle was installed, the retainer was pulled back into the right place, and the o-ring wasn't cut by the sharp edges of the headstock casting as the retainer was installed from the front of the lathe.

I ended up cutting a n additional hole in the paper gasket monarch provided. This is the gasket that seals the gap between main spindle bearing oil reservoir to the bearing retainer. There was no hole in the gasket to allow the oil caught by the front sling seal (directly behind the spindle nose) to return to the reservoir.

Thanks for all your advice. Now I need to figure out if I've damaged that spindle bearing . . .
 
...
To stop the rear bearing reservoir from leaking, I applied a bead of permetex in the corner of the brass bushing EE2888, (sort of a 'smile' of permetex), and re-installed the bushing. So far, so good. This is far enough from the bearings that I have some confidence they will not ingest any permetex.

I did put a thin coat of permetex on the paper gaskets as I re-assembled everything, although I left the cork gaskets uncoated. I couldn't put them back in without something on them. ...

To re-install the o-ring seal on the front oil retainer (part 26188), I pushed the retainer through the bore so the o-ring groove was accessible from inside the gear box, installed the o-ring and pushed the retainer back towards the tail stock. When the spindle was installed, the retainer was pulled back into the right place, and the o-ring wasn't cut by the sharp edges of the headstock casting as the retainer was installed from the front of the lathe.

I ended up cutting a n additional hole in the paper gasket monarch provided. This is the gasket that seals the gap between main spindle bearing oil reservoir to the bearing retainer. There was no hole in the gasket to allow the oil caught by the front sling seal (directly behind the spindle nose) to return to the reservoir.
...
Great tips here. Thanks!

I'm a little fuzzy on what you did with the Permatex on EE-2888. It sounds like you put the Permatex on next to the flange, on the tailstock end of the bearing. Is that correct?

Gasgacinch is a good choice for sealing paper and cork gaskets.

Cal
 
Cal,

That's right. The attached image has a red dot showing the place where the permatex was added. A thin bead around the lower side of the bronze plain bearing.

The surprising thing about this bearing is that the fit to the headstock was fairly loose, like 0.005" of diametral clearance. No way it would have held any lube. If monarch meant the oil for the rear bearings to seep past the bushing into the central gear reservoir, they went about it in a funny way. What they built was an oil/water separator.

--Jamie

IMG_0140.jpg
 
My belief is that on the three glass headstocks, that the drainage from the end chambers toward the center happens largely because the OD of the
bronze bushings that carry gears at each side of the end chambers (not sure of the part numbers) are a slip fit into the headstock casting, being retained by locking screws..
The bushing OD's fall to the bottom of the end cavities and any clearance on those bushings will result in the oil at the ends finding its way to the center sump by seeping around the bushing OD...

My 63' modular had this issue...when doing new spindle bearings, i setup the bushings on the lathe and cut in a groove on the OD's then fitted "O" rings into the groove.....
Cut the grooves on the inboard end of each bushing so as not to have to push the o-ring past the setscrew bore.......My machine seems to hold the end level pretty well after this mod....Might be a coincidence....but i think it works.
Suppose sealer would work, but difficult to get a good application around the bushing then push it home without stripping the sealer....
Cheers Ross
 
There has been lots of mentions of two stacked setscrews on the back, right side of the headstock. I found only this one item:
IMG_6162.jpg
 
Thought I'd add a tiny bit of additional information about spindle reassembly. The spindle passes through two clutch gears for fwd/rev operation.

In this photo, you'll see two setscrews in the headstock. Under each setscrew is another setscrew that has a nub that fits into a drilled hole in the bushing of the left and right spindle clutch gears. These bottom setscrews are only there to locate the bushings for the clutch gears. If you tighten them down, the bushing will pinch the clutch gear and prevent it from turning. In fact, if you have them just touching the bushing and then tighten the top setscrew, that will also cause binding.

The assembly procedure I found to work is to tighten the bottom setscrew until it just touches the bushing, then back it off may 5 degrees. Then the top setscrew can be tightened fully.

clutch gear.jpg
 
...
In this photo, you'll see two setscrews in the headstock. ...

View attachment 262839
Is that photo with the bushings in the final position? The headstock drawing shows the shoulder of the bushing (EE-2003) actually back in a shallow counter-bore:
MONARCH_EE_99_HEADSTOCK rear bearing.jpg

My EE-2003 bushings are definitely recessed into counter-bores.

Did you happen to take EE-2003 out? If so, do you have any photos of it? I curious to see what's under the holes on either side of the set screws.

Cal
 

Attachments

  • MONARCH_EE_99_HEADSTOCK rear bearing.jpg
    MONARCH_EE_99_HEADSTOCK rear bearing.jpg
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Another note on reassembly, this time about the tachometer and the spindle. (The notes are about a 10EE, 1942, round dial.)

Monarch really shot themselves in the foot by not providing more room in the headstock to ease assembly of the tach gears. If they had made the hole in the front of the headstock about 1/8 inch bigger, you could assemble the tach gear on the spindle and then slide it in. But no, the tach gear is just a bit too large for the existing hole. You must start the spindle in the headstock, reach down inside the headstock with the tach gear, and slide the gear onto the spindle. When the spindle is close to being all the way in, you must twist the tach gear until it lines up with the key on the spindle. One that is done and it is seated, then you must reach down inside and tighten the setscrew.

Ah, but that is not the worst of it. There are two tach gears, upper and lower. If you've had the spindle out and removed the upper tach gear to clean and service it, be warned that it has to go back BEFORE the spindle and lower tach gear!. With the spindle and lower tach gear in place, there isn't room to insert the upper gear.

If the tach and spindle are out, start reassembly by putting the top tach gear in the headstock and reaching through the front of the headstock to hold the gear in place. With the other hand holding the tach bevel gear bracket, slide it onto the bevel gear shaft. The bracket that holds the two bevel gears must be loose from the headstock so you can wiggle it around while trying to line up the shaft with the upper tach gear. (Have a bent wire ready because you'll have to fish the gear out of the bottom of the headstock when it slips out of your fingers a dozen times.) Do not bolt the bevel gear bracket onto the headstock yet because you need to insert the setscrew that hold the gear onto the shaft and that can't be done with the bracket it place. Once you have the gear on its shaft, turn it while holding the shaft still until the hole for the gear's setscrew lines up with the hole in the shaft. Then carefully insert the setscrew and tighten it. (Have a magnet pickup tool ready, because you'll probably miss a few times and drop the setscrew into the bottom on the headstock, which hopefully, you've drained.)

Once the upper tach gear is on its shaft, you can drop the bottom gear down in the headstock and proceed with the first instructions about installing the second tach gear while stabbing the spindle in the headstock.

tach bracket.jpg
IMG_6170.jpg
IMG_6171.jpg
 
This is related to my post on 10ee spindle problems, but now that the spindle has to come out to fix the problem, thought a new thread would be seen by more people. I looked through the search function and didn't find anything useful, but maybe gave up too soon. Anyway, I would like to get any advice anyone might have on the do"s and don'ts of spindle removal It doesn't look difficult, but there are usually some be careful about... or be sure to mark this before removal, that kind of thing.

Dale Nelson
10ee spindle removal
 
When I dug it up the other day I intended too add the link to your thread. I was using the phone to post while waiting for my wife at the Dr office. I screwed up. No more tap talk for me.
I figured you would see it. Cal then posted it too your thread.
It is a very good thread.

Google is the best to search PM. Lots of Info.
 








 
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