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1976 FP3, my new mill

thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Hi to all,

it's been a while since I've posted something new, even more since I posted about a new Deckel (5 years actually!).

So, after a period of fixation, I decided on replacing my beloved 500 mm twinlever FP2 with an FP3. I decided on finding a later roundhead machine, and this summer a 1976 sample cameup.
Here she is, in my (mess of a ) workshop, just after it was delivered:

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Four years have passed since I got a new (to me) machine and I had forgotten how much work it is to clean and set up (to one's liking) a new machine.
It is really dirty and has seen a lot of coolant (that has stained vertical table), but it has, already, started to look better:

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At first glance it's not that bad, bellows have kept Z ways decent. Both quills where stuck, now vertical if free, horizontal needs some cleaning still. I did decide to take the risk and push on the thrust bearings of the horizontal to pull it out, by pulling off a tool in the spindle, but I think this was the safest option.

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The lever for the Z lock is also missing, and the shaft moved a bit strangely, so I removed the Z handwheel gearbox:

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It all seems to work nicely, lock and feed-interlock as well. It's only strange to my eyes that the Z lock lever doesn't seem to have end stops. Also, the lock is left hand threaded, correct? (@AlfaGTA , @Peter from Holland , @TNB ) (you apply counterclockwise action on the lever to lock, right?)

X slide is a beauty with the integrated scale, the improved gib, the oilers, many way wipers and 0.2 mm of backlash!

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Nice things overall are the bellows that are there (except the sliding head's that needs repairs), the Heidenhains and the, acceptable so far, condition. Spindle break is also nice, though, strangely to me, it needs to be engaged if one is to turn the spindle on. So, in order to change rpm or feed rate you have to :
- stop the spindle
- release brake (or else the inching wheel won't move)
- restore brake
- turn spindle on.
I'd rather the brake was always released and one could activate it only when needed.

Bad things are the monkeyed electrics. I think they had issues with the low voltage control lines and they ended up sending 220V up the control buttons. I'll have to fix this. I'll also have to fix the brake and e-stop retaining rings since I managed to throw the electrics cabinet face down while moving the machine around... It was after some hard work taking the machine off its (massive) pallet and placing it safely and incident free down on the ground, yet I forgot about the cabinet while moving it on wheels and it fell... no real harm done, just annoying.
Hand wheels need also attention, Z and Y have mistreated levers.
I think I'll fix the handwheels to their shafts and remove the levers. I can't see myself having to pull out the handwheel in order to creep to dimension (e.g. in an internal pocket) after I have stopped power feed.
It's also missing the Z screw cover, I'll have to ask for dimensions from one of you guys at some point.

Compared to the FP2, it seems more robust (in order to be able to take advantage of the extra hp as well) and, strangely, larger. The table not that much (at least not the vertical alone. The add on tables ARE huge compared to the FP2's) but the head is big. Larger quill OD and much heftier castings.
I haven't actually used it, I think I don't like where the X lock is (where the Z lock was on the older 2/3s), since it's very far from the handwheel.
I also don't like that one must always swivel the head away in order to work horizontally. On the FP2 with the long reach head that places the vertical spindle nose 60 mm higher than the horizontal axis, 90% of the cases you just stick a tool in the horizontal and work. You can do this several times within a project. With the 3, this can't be done. Hope the extra 40 mm of quill travel and extra robustness will make-up for the inconvenience....

I'll cover the repairs and some details on its use here.

BR,
Thanos
 
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AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Thanos:
Re: the swiveling of the vertical head to go horizontal....Your machine should have a taper alignment pin that sets the vertical head in tram so moving the head should be of little inconvenience, and quick to do....plan your work so that you only make the change once per job if possible. The thing that running a CNC machine teaches you is to get the entire process schedule/plan down before cutting any metal.

RE: slide lock handles...position is different from your FP2 mainly due to the interlocks...think the change is necessary to have the mechanism fit easily.
You will get used to the locks....In reality, I bet you won't use them all that much.

The motor brake is applied when power is off..Its a safety thing, so if anything happens the brake will be applied when powering off or going to "E" stop. Place your electrical cabinet so that the switch for the brake is in easy reach when standing at the operators position. Top of the cabinet ios a convenient place for measuring tools and the like
The interlock is there to prevent you starting the main motor with the brake applied.

Machine looks pretty good....Thanks for sharing.
Cheers Ross
 
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Joined
Jan 15, 2005
Location
The Netherlands
Can you make a picture of the controls Never seen them This is a in between machine The same as the later 80ies but no seperate dc motor for the feeds and no or different console for the electric controls For the brake You could ad a timer so that the brake is only engaged for a few seconds after the motor is turned off Then disengages Thats how it is on many lathes
Peter (waiting for the ferry to Danmark in the streaming rain :angry::angry:)
 

thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Hi guys, thanks for the replies.

... The thing that running a CNC machine teaches you is to get the entire process schedule/plan down before cutting any metal.

RE: slide lock handles...position is different from your FP2 mainly due to the interlocks...think the change is necessary to have the mechanism fit easily.
You will get used to the locks....In reality, I bet you won't use them all that much.

... Place your electrical cabinet so that the switch for the brake is in easy reach when standing at the operators position. Top of the cabinet ios a convenient place for measuring tools and the like...
Hey Ross,

- yeap, I guess I should be able to plan at some point. Till now, I have to try and see if a specific tool works properly in terms of reach or cutting properties so I do switch from hor to vertical several times, but I'll learn I guess..:)

- I think that the first FP3 (Z handle at an angle) also had interlocks, yet lock lever placement is similar to the FP2. I understand the change happened after they upgraded the whole carriage to the one I have now (which is also the same as on the squareheads).

- Yeap, electrical cabinet is next to me (on the 2, and will be so on the 3 as well), so, you're right, brake switch will be 200 mm away from the inching wheel. I guess it'll be ok.

Can you make a picture of the controls Never seen them ...
Peter (waiting for the ferry to Danmark in the streaming rain :angry::angry:)

Hey Peter,

what controls are you referring to? This machine is identical to the one you had back in 2019, with the broken shaft at the manual Z control. Exactly the same (contrary to the three-button variables, that have the E-stop on the machine).

Rain is...cool Peter, I'd love some here! (I guess one wants what one doesn't have...)

Thanks

BR,
Thanos
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Thanos:
Think there are carry over machines, what i mean by that, don't think that there was a hard model change where all the features all changed...
For example, my FP3 at work is like yours in general make up. Has the semi rounded vertical head like yours.
Single motor machine, but has an "E" stop button on the machine (3 buttons).
Mine does not have the operators control pendant (like yours) but has covers that are cut out for clearance where the pendant would have been bolted to the rear of the main casting.....
Has the straight "Z" handwheel and slide locks (X and Z) that have interlocks and that are lifted to lock the slide.....
Cheers Ross
 

thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Thanos:
Think there are carry over machines, what i mean by that, don't think that there was a hard model change where all the features all changed...
For example, my FP3 at work is like yours in general make up. Has the semi rounded vertical head like yours.
Single motor machine, but has an "E" stop button on the machine (3 buttons).
Mine does not have the operators control pendant (like yours) but has covers that are cut out for clearance where the pendant would have been bolted to the rear of the main casting.....
Has the straight "Z" handwheel and slide locks (X and Z) that have interlocks and that are lifted to lock the slide.....
Cheers Ross
Hi Ross,

thanks for confirming that your Z lock is counterclockwise in operation, has to be if you have to lift it to lock the slide!

Regarding FP3 models, I agree that the changes were as you say, one bit at a time, till the machine evolved to the latest and greatest Aktiv.
As far as I can understand though, a considerable change happened after 1975, when they used the new carriage (5 slots, straight Z, totally redesigned screw and feed shaft placement, redesigned gibs, swapped locks, 15 mm increased Z travel). This carriage was kept till the end of the FP3 model life.
After 1978 (I think, not sure) they changed to the squarehead models with the separate DC motor for the feeds.
(though I, very recently, saw pics of a roundhead model with DC motor for the feeds. That would be only days before the squareheads I suppose :) )

Regarding the pendant on my machine, for Peter mostly, it only carries the DRO (the most 'basic' Heidenhain I've ever seen...), no controls whatsoever. I haven't checked on the mounting but I've seen many FP3, even 1960's ones with the same pendant for the DRO.

Ross, it would be great if you posted some pics of your machine as well, I think most were lost in photobucket.

BR,
Thanos
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
OK...here are a few snaps of my FP3

This is what it looked like when i got it.
Belonged to Northrup Aviation is Southern Ca. Bought off auction on E-bay

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Side view;

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Note the location of the control cabinet.....

Also note the old style hand wheels....Done on purpose! This handle has the rim stay connected and to use the handle you must push the handle in and engage a hole in the rim....I like this style handle better as it makes doing small moves easier, not requiring you to push the handle in to engage..which i find clumsy on small moves....
DRO (ND 750) mounts to the oil feed hole for the gear and bearings in the upper casting....Mount has oil feed hole at the top and oil feeds to the machine through the mount.

Cheers Ross
 
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thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Hi Ross,

thanks for the pics. I remember the pink one, but I am not sure if I had ever seen the grey ones. What a beauty... ( I am always sold for non-green machine tools, I don't like my new one's color at all. Anyhow, first world problems...)

Even If I had seen the pics before, I hadn't paid enough attention. I adore what you did with the DRO cables. If you have close-ups, it would be very interesting. How did you hide X scale cable when it has to have some allowance for the Z up/down?? I can't, also, see the Y scale head! And, wondering what you did with the Z scale, not visible on the pictures!

Regarding handles, as I already said, I am with you. The ones you have are what my FP2 has as well, they are just perfect. I agree that the 'pull-to-engage' type must be a bit safer, and the FP3 has faster rapid and all, but it sucks. I think that, for budget reasons, I'll remove the handle and use a spacer to keep the handwheel always engaged. Wouldn't want to know how much singer would ask for a set of 'old type' handwheels.

Many thanks,
Thanos
 

thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
OK...here are a few snaps of my FP3

This is what it looked like when i got it.
Belonged to Northrup Aviation is Southern Ca. Bought off auction on E-bay

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What is this table?? That's not FP2 and definitely not FP3...
 

thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Not sure if I should start a new thread, hope the forum will have a look at this:

Has anybody removed part 2001-671 on an FP2 or FP3? This is the cover of the headstock, held in place by four M6 screws.
frontcover.JPG

As I said, horizontal quill was stuck. I removed it, and will clean everything, but I think that I need to properly clean the quill lock as it's function is not springy at all. When you tighten the lock lever you see the lock actually being compressed (quill missing apparently) but it's won't return back when I release the lock lever. Also, the lock lever itself is much tighter that I'd like (or than my FP2 is).

I'd like to take the front cover out but I am reluctant to mess this area of ultra tight tolerances...

BR,
Thanos
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Believe some here have removed that plate. Not done so myself as the quill lock setup on my manual machines all work fine, so no reason to remove it.
From the factory believe the bolt counterbores are filled so that has to be dealt with before the bolts and then the plate can be removed.

Think the plate is located in a counterbore and should be able to be removed and re-installed once cleaning of the quill clamp is complete.

Re: Table.....
Its a tilt/swivel/rotate table. Came without an ID plate, but i believe its accessory for the FP3 , perhaps 2231. Bought years back off German E-Bay.
Machine originally came with a much smaller adjustable table (2214)

I also have a 2038 "tool Makers Table" for that machine. The one with the Heidenhain angle encoder to display the table rotation with the hand operated gearbox/handwheel to rotate the table...

Here is the detail on the "Y" axis scale read head....mounted the read head in the gauge block cradle and routed the cable through the casting and out the opposite side of the machine to get the cable out of the way.
Scale uses the gauge block stop "T" slots for mounting. Did not think i needed the gauge block setup with the DRO
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Here is the cable exit .....

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As to the Z scale...mounted on the non operators side. Put the scale with the read head facing the "Z" slide casting where it is mounted...not the
best practice really as it faces the opening and seals toward potential dirt and cuttings...but i am careful to not direct any chips toward
the scale. To date its worked well.
Read head is mounted to the gib plate with shop built bracket nesting in milled pocket.

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Here is the exit for the "X" scale......

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Cheers Ross
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Here are a few shots of the "Z" axis scale read head mount:
Gib plate with pocket and read head bracket.
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Bracket:
Made from pre-hard 4142

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Note paint scraped from main casting surface where scale is mounted. This surface is milled flat from the factory so good place to mount the scale.
Mounting holes drilled and tapped into casting.

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Cheers Ross
 

thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Hey Ross,

too much information, many thanks. I have to digest it before fully replying...

I didn't specify, I was asking about the table the machine came originally with. It's not a FP2 2214, that one has 5 slots, your's had 6 slots (5.5 actually :) ).
The table you got is a 2229 (2231 is the shorter, full swivel one). I got one as well, before actually having found an fp3 :)
2229.jpg

Thanks so much for the images.

For Z, that indent on the gib plate is for the head mount, I'll show mine tomorrow.
For Y, it makes total sense to mount it on the gauge block flat. Mine is factory mounted on the other side, that's how they liked it back then...
For X, I think I have the factory installation as well, but I just noticed that it might be stealing some 20 mm of travel! I'll have to check again tomorrow. @sneebot , could you please share a couple of pictures of your operator side X slide without the bellows where the scale head is visible? That is if you have factory DRO installation. @TNB , you don't have to check if your DRO is factory installed (:) ) any pics from that part would be appreciated !

Also, I noticed that the hard stops for manual travel that the FP2 has are not on the FP3. It seems that manual travel stops when the X slide end caps hit the carriage. Pics will explain better tomorrow.

Best regards,
Thanos
 
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sneebot

Stainless
Joined
May 14, 2001
Location
Massachusetts
My FP3 is one serial number from Ross' machine (Mine is #3776 while I think his is #3775). It did not have a DRO when I bought it. I followed Ross' images for scale mounting, which required milling out the back of the x-axis slide. I also machined an arm to mount the DRO and ran all the cables through the machine and routed them through the arm knuckle.

First owner added a rotating handle on 'Y' handwheel and a reversing switch on the electrical box. You should be able to see the switch next to the brake switch.

With my machine I find that I usually do not have to release the brake to switch gears.
 

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thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Here are a few shots of the "Z" axis scale read head mount:
Gib plate with pocket and read head bracket.
...
Had a better look today, amazing work Ross!
My FP3 is one serial number from Ross' machine (Mine is #3776 while I think his is #3775). It did not have a DRO when I bought it. I followed Ross' images for scale mounting, which required milling out the back of the x-axis slide. I also machined an arm to mount the DRO and ran all the cables through the machine and routed them through the arm knuckle.

First owner added a rotating handle on 'Y' handwheel and a reversing switch on the electrical box. You should be able to see the switch next to the brake switch.

With my machine I find that I usually do not have to release the brake to switch gears.
Thanks for the pics sneebot,
I have color envy for both of you now... :)

My machine is #3641. From that to yours, I think the only difference is the operator side panel: It has the final version of the upper 'nest' for buttons and RPM selector and the three buttons. Apart from that, I can't see any difference to mine, except for the color of course...

Wasn't the handle on the Y handwheel rotating to begin with? I think on my FP2 it is, but have to check. I like the reversing switch, I might do it at some point.
Nice that you can change gears without having to release the brake, hope it's like this with mine as well.

Ijust mention it but I am sure you know that reversing a Deckel makes it impossible to use the powerfeeds
Peter
Right Peter, though, at least for me, reversing is only needed for power tapping and left-hand drilling.

I'll come back with more pics at night guys, many thanks.

BR,
Thanos
 

thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
A few comments on DRO installation based on a pic I had already uploaded.
cabling.png
Though the installation on my machine seems factory, hence the waiting hole at the bracket on top of the door, it seems that they had messed with it at some point.
- Y cable does not pass through the intended hole (Ross's and sneebot's machines, that weren't factory equipped with a DRO don't have that waiting hole there).
- Both Z and Y cables don't end up at the junction box
- There is an extra unconnected cable waiting at the DRO. I suppose it's other end is in that junction box...

BR,
Thanos
 

thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Not sure what hole you are referring to...But best i know is that those "P" style clamps on the DRO cable at the side of the machine are not factory.
Cheers Ross
Ycabling.JPG

Hey Ross,

That's where the Y scale cable is supposed to go through, for factory installations. My mill has that hole, but cable does not go through there, proof that they had scale issues at some point for Y (for X as well, but that's a different story, I'll talk about this later on)

BR,
thanos
 

thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Not much of an update today:

I took X gib out, seems decent to me:
20220920_220337.jpg
And so are the shims washers for adjusting the X gib:

20220920_221200.jpg 20220920_221318.jpg
I've only, recently, learned about this gib configuration (Ross spent a couple of posts explaining, I had never seen something like this before), but I would assume that the range of adjustment that is shown here must be a good thing, right?

Also, regarding the X slide stops I mentioned earlier.
This is how it is with the FP2:
20220920_213847.jpg
There is that black hex screw with its locknut on the endcap, you adjust it accordingly and you get a nice positive stop when travel is exhausted manually. (trip dogs have done their job 10 mm earlier).

No such thing on the FP3:
endcap.JPGendcap3_2.jpg
endcap2.JPG
When end cap (grey part in red circle, top pics) is about to hit the carriage, or screw support is about to hit the oiler mounting screws, motion is stopped by the trip dogs. But the feeling is not positive, you fit the trip dogs a bit, it's not like it actually hits a hard stop. I am talking about MANUALLY moving X, no power feed.

How do your machines stop at the limits of the manual motion along X guys?
Thanks,
thanos
 

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