1976 FP3, my new mill

[AlfaGTA]

Peters note of the outer sleeve being eccentric is germane here...Work progressed on removal before i had a chance to respond..I knew about the eccentric shape and would have taken another preventative step before removal.....Might not be of value, but think i would have clocked the flats on top and bottom of the sleeve relative to the "Y" slide dovetails before removal......Would have given a reference when reinstalling.....side effect of Peters removal method is that now the mounting holes have additional clearance on the bolts that align the sleeve....

Think it would be possible to turn a slug to mimic the quill. Perhaps made from Bronze that just fits the bore, and somewhat shorter than the real quill...likely relieved in the middle so that it had two bands of contact with the housing bore.
Mount your indicator in the end of the slug and rotate to sweep the freshly installed outer sleeve.
I would provide a means to rotate the tool at the rear furthest away from the indicated area and accessed through the window in the top of the slide...

Cheers Ross

 

[Peter from Holland]

Peters note of the outer sleeve being eccentric is germane here...Work progressed on removal before i had a chance to respond..I knew about the eccentric shape and would have taken another preventative step before removal.....Might not be of value, but think i would have clocked the flats on top and bottom of the sleeve relative to the "Y" slide dovetails before removal......Would have given a reference when reinstalling.....side effect of Peters removal method is that now the mounting holes have additional clearance on the bolts that align the sleeve....

Think it would be possible to turn a slug to mimic the quill. Perhaps made from Bronze that just fits the bore, and somewhat shorter than the real quill...likely relieved in the middle so that it had two bands of contact with the housing bore.
Mount your indicator in the end of the slug and rotate to sweep the freshly installed outer sleeve.
I would provide a means to rotate the tool at the rear furthest away from the indicated area and accessed through the window in the top of the slide...

Cheers Ross

I think that is not going to help The ring can be positioned quit good when you slide it over the quill which is seated in its bore The misalignment starts when you tighten the bolt The soft hammer approach often works for me
Getting the quill back in might be another problem You have to guide it with some V blocks on the table perhaps and in line with the bore
Peter

 

[thanvg]

Hi to all,

Thanks for the reply Ross and taking the time to do that sketch for me.
You are 100% right on that I should have taken some kind of reference measurements before I removed the cover, totally right.

Regarding your test mandrel suggestion, I hope it won't be necessary. The main issue is that it's not easy for me to replicate the quill with such accuracy, I have to admit that. But, I might have to if the straightforward approach doesn't work.

Ignorance is bliss but I am calm about this. The quill is the perfect guide for this assembly, I doubt any mandrel I can make will be as good as the quill itself. Clearance on the cover mounting holes wasn't really compromised, since it was already so loose, nothing even remotely near of using the M6 bolts as guides.

The plan is to install the cover ring on the quill and then install the quill in the headstock. I'll pull the pinion on as well and move the quill constantly back and forth while pushing the cover in and starting to tighten the bolts. I am confident it'll go smoothly.

Of course, provided that I can put the quill it at all....Last time I did this on the FP2 it took more than an hour. I use a level for the up/down and a right-angle for the left/right but it's still a pain.

How do you do it with the V blocks Peter? Set them at removal and keep everything still till reinstallation?

Many thanks,
Thanos

 

[Peter from Holland]

How do you do it with the V blocks Peter? Set them at removal and keep everything still till reinstallation?

Many thanks,
Thanos

Quill in 2 big V-blocks on the table and a stop at the end
Depending on the V-blocks and table you might need something to raise it all to get to the right level
Then align the quill with a square or a indicator moving the Y-axe
Look for the right hight and move the Y slide forward Fiddling with the hight a bit perhaps
If you do not have V-blocks 2 pc of square stock bolted to the table and the quil tight in between wiil do also
If you try to do it unsupported it can be a nightmare

Peter

 

[AlfaGTA]

Thanos:
You can use the spindle to align the quill to the housing.....Use "V" blocks as Peter describes, but set the quill on the "Vees" backwards.
Use a test indicator in the spindle to sweep the housing bore giving the vertical and horizontal position,,,to set at right angles sweep the face of the
housing....use hold downs on the "V" blocks (not the quill) so nothing will move....Turn the spindle around and slide it carefully into the aligned housing feeding with the "Y" to get started,

Cheers Ross

 

[thanvg]

Quill in 2 big V-blocks on the table and a stop at the end
Depending on the V-blocks and table you might need something to raise it all to get to the right level
Then align the quill with a square or a indicator moving the Y-axe
Look for the right hight and move the Y slide forward Fiddling with the hight a bit perhaps
If you do not have V-blocks 2 pc of square stock bolted to the table and the quil tight in between wiil do also
If you try to do it unsupported it can be a nightmare

Peter

Thanos:
You can use the spindle to align the quill to the housing.....Use "V" blocks as Peter describes, but set the quill on the "Vees" backwards.
Use a test indicator in the spindle to sweep the housing bore giving the vertical and horizontal position,,,to set at right angles sweep the face of the
housing....use hold downs on the "V" blocks (not the quill) so nothing will move....Turn the spindle around and slide it carefully into the aligned housing feeding with the "Y" to get started,

Cheers Ross

Oh guys you rock,

yes, it's a nightmare freehanded. It was on the FP2, it'll be much more difficult on the 3 with that drawbar extension.
Only problem is that I haven't fitted the table yet back on the machine.

So, I'll set two parallels on the table, align them with Y and clamp them on
Then I'll rest the spindle on the parallels, taper side towards the machine. Spindle will have a tool holding a DTI looking into the machine and use X/Z to align it to the headstock bore. Flip and insert, hopefully it'll go in easily.

Many thanks to both!
BR,
Thanos

 

[Peter from Holland]

Oh guys you rock,

yes, it's a nightmare freehanded. It was on the FP2, it'll be much more difficult on the 3 with that drawbar extension.
Only problem is that I haven't fitted the table yet back on the machine.

So, I'll set two parallels on the table, align them with Y and clamp them on
Then I'll rest the spindle on the parallels, taper side towards the machine. Spindle will have a tool holding a DTI looking into the machine and use X/Z to align it to the headstock bore. Flip and insert, hopefully it'll go in easily.

Many thanks to both!
BR,
Thanos

Most important is that it is not freehanded
On the vertical I place the quill upward on the table and guide it in cranking the Z
Worked for me


Peter

 

[thanvg]

I did mount a table on the machine yesterday, I'm am trying quill installation today.
Let's see how this goes...

BR,
Thanos

 

[thanvg]

Hi again,

didn't go smoothly yesterday, but it was not the process to blame.

Set my parallels aligned with Y:


And put the spindle on facing the machine to center it:

Cover ring was already in the spindle as per my initial planning.
Centering by moving X and Z with those pull-to-engage handwheels while trying to see what the indicator shows is frustrating, I am ditching the levers and fixing the handwheels permanently on their shaft, no other choice...

Next I flipped the quill around and started pushing in. Went in a bit and then stopped. I even put on an angle plate and used the Y screw to push the quill in:

I didn't push harder than, say, drilling 25 mm in steel in order to be safe.
Quill did go in, I was even able to install the pinion which, with regular force, didn't move the quill at all.

So, I took it back out and called it a night.
A quick inspection didn't reveal something alarming, I do, however, believe there is a dent or burr somewhere, possible towards the front.

I am considering using an aluminium expanding lap to perform a slight lapping in the bore and remove anything that might hinder the quill motion, even if I can't see it at the moment.

Quill is straight and uniform in diameter. Straight since spindle rotates super smoothly in there on its three needle bearings. Uniform since, when using the cover ring as a gauge, the fit is the same along the whole length of the quill. So nothing is deformed.

I don't even have equipment to measure such tolerances, so I am not sure how I am supposed to determine any issues in the bore.
I tend to think that a lap, before correcting, could also reveal where/if there is something in there.

BR,
Thanos

PS. of course, the issue of lapping compounding getting embedded in the bore material, is something I haven't figured out yet...

 

[eKretz]

I am not so sure about that idea. I would instead maybe try a little high-spot bluing and look for any rubbing that way.

 

[JDP993]

Late to this thread but I had a similar problem with my Fp2 that I addressed about 4 years ago. I was able to borrow an air gage with the appropriate size gages and calibration rings. The bore on my machine was out of round about 10 microns as I recall. It was squashed along the vertical axis which is not what I would have expected. I did end up making a lap and working the bore. It took a long time to get just right as I was very worried about going too far.

At some point someone used some nasty coolant or cutting oil with my machine. Some of this coolant had settled in and around the spindle. At first I wasn't sure if the coolant film is what I was measuring in the bore. At any rate it all cleaned up beautifully and the quill works very smoothly.

It order to isolate the mess a made a plug for the back of the bore (plastic with an O-ring). I spent a lot of time cleaning when I was done.

John

 

[eKretz]

This situation is different IMO. the quill moved fine before it came apart. I'm guessing there's just a small raised dinger somewhere. It REALLY doesn't take much on a close fit.

 

[thanvg]

Late to this thread but I had a similar problem with my Fp2 that I addressed about 4 years ago. I was able to borrow an air gage with the appropriate size gages and calibration rings. The bore on my machine was out of round about 10 microns as I recall. It was squashed along the vertical axis which is not what I would have expected. I did end up making a lap and working the bore. It took a long time to get just right as I was very worried about going too far.

At some point someone used some nasty coolant or cutting oil with my machine. Some of this coolant had settled in and around the spindle. At first I wasn't sure if the coolant film is what I was measuring in the bore. At any rate it all cleaned up beautifully and the quill works very smoothly.

It order to isolate the mess a made a plug for the back of the bore (plastic with an O-ring). I spent a lot of time cleaning when I was done.

John

Thanks for chiming in John,

What did you use as lapping compound?
And how did you hold your lap? Elastic drive of some kind?
I think I'll make it around half the length of the bore

 

[JDP993]

I used an oil soluble 8 micron diamond lapping paste that I believe can from McMaster Carr.

 

[Peter from Holland]

How far did it go in ? Far enough for the spline to engage?
Try to install it without the pinion so you can rotate it Keep rotating as you push it in That can need some force You can make a wooden clamp to hold it Rotating can give some slight marks which make it visable where it binds and you feel if there are burrs somewhat The teeth are suspect for burrs
Bluing is useless as all surfaces are way too smooth It smeers right off
I use solvent with some oil as a lubricant with this
DO NOT HONE OR LAPP IT right now
I have been fighting quills of some Aciera's and a SIP No fun

Peter

 

[thanvg]

I used an oil soluble 8 micron diamond lapping paste that I believe can from McMaster Carr.

Thanks!

How far did it go in ? Far enough for the spline to engage?
Try to install it without the pinion so you can rotate it Keep rotating as you push it in That can need some force You can make a wooden clamp to hold it Rotating can give some slight marks which make it visable where it binds and you feel if there are burrs somewhat The teeth are suspect for burrs
Bluing is useless as all surfaces are way too smooth It smeers right off
I use solvent with some oil as a lubricant with this
DO NOT HONE OR LAPP IT right now
I have been fighting quills of some Aciera's and a SIP No fun

Peter

Right Peter, blueing won't help here.

I'll try your suggestion, with a wooden clamp but it's far too stiff, no way to rotate it. Only if I rotate as I push, and now I understand that's what you're suggesting...
(Yes the teeth as suspects for burrs-deformation)

I installed it without the pinion, that one was put on later on.
It did go in till the spindle drive 'spline' engaged in the gear and even as far as the drawbar extension engaging with the rear drawbar control (the black 10mm Allen at the back of the Y ram).

I'll go with you, but I've already found the aluminum piece for the lap, I'm telling you

BR,
Thanos

 

[thanvg]

I am not so sure about that idea. I would instead maybe try a little high-spot bluing and look for any rubbing that way.

Oil wipes off the quill right away, blue won't really help.
Scratch marks on the other hand though, as Peter suggested....

 

[Peter from Holland]

Thanks!


Right Peter, blueing won't help here.

I'll try your suggestion, with a wooden clamp but it's far too stiff, no way to rotate it. Only if I rotate as I push, and now I understand that's what you're suggesting...
(Yes the teeth as suspects for burrs-deformation)

I installed it without the pinion, that one was put on later on.
It did go in till the spindle drive 'spline' engaged in the gear and even as far as the drawbar extension engaging with the rear drawbar control (the black 10mm Allen at the back of the Y ram).

I'll go with you, but I've already found the aluminum piece for the lap, I'm telling you

BR,
Thanos

Find the cause (saysI)If then it needs honing ? Fine
it does not jam in the spline? That you can check with bluing probably
And those quill can be tight Not able to push in by hand The pinion is needed for that on a good one
Or the help ofa angle plate
Peter

 

[thanvg]

Find the cause (saysI)If then it needs honing ? Fine
it does not jam in the spline? That you can check with bluing probably
And those quill can be tight Not able to push in by hand The pinion is needed for that on a good one
Or the help ofa angle plate
Peter

No, checked that: tail of the spindle is nice in the gear, has some backlash at the keyway, no issues there

Let me use the FP2 to bore some wood for a clamp....

 

[Peter from Holland]

No, checked that: tail of the spindle is nice in the gear, has some backlash at the keyway, no issues there

Let me use the FP2 to bore some wood for a clamp....

Bore??? Overkill IMHO .Just some rough V's in wood and 2 pc of allthread