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5 axis selection

tcncj

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Hi all

Need some opinions about this situation.
Situation:
One man shop (and want to keep it like that)
Running 3 machines, 2 mills and 1 lathe (3 + 4th axis VMC, 3 axis drill/tap and a lathe with driven tools)
My work is very high mix and low volume. Running 10 parts (for example 1 day of work) feels like heavy production for me.
The newly acquired lathe is doing more production though (which is nice for the lathe). This way I have time to operate the mills.
Rest of my work is prototype stuff and short runs. Quite some repeat jobs.
I'm reaching the maximum I can output and need to invest in the next step. I don't want and can't work 70+ hours a week anymore, even though I'm quite " young" with my 35 years, I feel like 70 in machinist years.
And want to spend more time on my personal life instead of my work. I don't want to be at the shop till midnight to finish a series of parts.
I'm always so full with work and planning is so tight I'm not flexible anymore. And the flexibility is what my company grew, and what my customers want.
I have a real steady customer base for years (in different fields). But the customer base is currently growing harder than I can handle (and want to provide my loyal customers with parts). And the current customers keep sending me more and more work. Which is kind of a luxury position.

So....
I want to move a lot of short runs and repeat jobs to the night.
And...
Less setups! Which is killing my efficiency. A lot of my parts are 3d 5 axis contouring work. At the moment I build all kind of fixtures to be able to make the required parts.
Besides the lost time in fixture building (which is wasted time) it also gives me a headache haha.

My plan is to sell one VMC (the drill/tap machine). Since I can't and don't want to operate 4 machines at the same time. I rather spend time prepping the pallets for running the night.
In return I want a 5 axis simultaneous machine with pallet automation. The more pallets the better.

I'm not making super critical high precision parts. But I do want a machine which is reliable and repeatable.
With the automation in mind I want to arrive in the morning and have pallets full of good parts.
And use my 40 tapers VMC to do second op stuff.

I did quite some research for over a year. And came to the conclusion these two machines would make a good fitment.

Option 1:
DMG Mori DMU40/DMU50 3th gen

Option 2:
Hermle C250


I saw the new DMU40 (plus) which is based on the DMU50 3th gen. And looks well build in a nice small package.
The DMU50 3th gen would be better, but don't have pricing on that one yet.
DMU40 plus is around 270k. With automation interface, auto side door, probing, 40bar tsc, kinematic calibration, washdown, 60 tools, coolant filtration, pneumatics/hydraulic through the table. Option with HSK available.

Plus:
I already have a newly acquired DMG lathe. Techs are fairly close (i'm located in Europe).
Seems like a solid package. Also on a ergonomic standpoint. You can load in tools from the front in the magazine.
I think 3 years spindle warranty on the 15k spindle.
Lots of stuff to monitor the machine remotely
Side loading of pallets
Cooling of the table on the plus and pro versions
Positional accuracy of a few micron (from what I read).
Lots of DMU's in the field over here. So seems like a solid package?

I would prefer the DMU50 3th gen because of the higher Z height and bit more x travel.
But I don't know pricing on it yet. I expect it to be at least 50k higher.

Downside:
Don't really have any big negative points to be honest. I do think they are a bit overpriced. But on the other hand it's a solid package?

Hermle C250

40 bar tcs, standard options like probing and so on, 18k RPM HSK spindle, Kinematic opt, extended magazine (80 tools total), coolant filtration, pneumatics/hydraulic through the table.
Some stuff to remove the table so you can add a pallet interface (saves a lot of z height).
Price. 300k

Plus: it's a Hermle
Another plus: it's a Hermle
- More travels
- Never heard bad things about Hermle support
- I really like the build of the machine

Downsides:
- spindle is grease packed. It needs to be stopped during x amount of hours to let the grease flow back into the bearings. This can be arranged in the PLC according to the sales rep.
I don't do any mold making. But it's a strange design if you ask me for such machine. Next year they release a new version where this would be changed (i'm told...)
- Wormgear on the table. Hermle doesn't ship out crappy machines. But to me this is kind of strange compared to direct drive or torque motor machines? Sales rep said that wear occurs but it can be tuned out.
And for customers that do a lot of 3d 5 axis simul machining they loosen up the play on the wormgear. Is this a showstopper for me?

Another thing to consider is that I need to load the C250 from the front (I prefer the sides). I got a quote on a HSflex system. But it's a no go since I need to walk in between the machine and automation and pull the controls to me. But I'm running in my workshop from one machine to the other. After 1 day this will drive me crazy. So I need some kind of automation loading system that loads in an angle (robot) and isn't blocking my way to the machine/control.

I don't think there is a bad decision. I just want to have the best one for me.

I don't care about the controls. HH or Siemens is fine. I don't do any programming on the machine (all is CAM).
 
If it were my money and those were the ONLY two choices available... I'd go with the Hermle. Mori DMG or whatever they are calling themselves this year change designs and everything more frequently than you change underwear. I liken them to Mazak... trying to be all things to all people and they don't do anything exceptionally well anymore when you put them up against a dedicted builder.

Go with Hermle, at least they stick to machining centers and do them well... like Mikron, Mitsui Seiki, Matsuura, and Yasda.

JM2CFWIW
 
Both option are very good machines.

If you only want Hermle or DMG i would chose the Hermle, just because the Hermle service is a kind of its own.
If you have a breakdown, in most cases you have the parts and a techician on the next day.
The wormgear in the C axis wouldnt bother me if you dont run much 5X simultaneous. I even run a C22 with a loosend up wormgear for simultaneous work and it works fine. Sure it is slower then torque but if its not to often that doesent matter.

BUT i strongly recommend that you look into a GROB G350. Especially if, like you said, dont have to hold very firm tolerances.
IMO its the best concept for a universal CNC milling machine.
In my old job i worked on those and it was mind bogling how much easier most parts are to make.
Thanks to the "tunnel" you dont have to worry about tool length, you can load the absolut maximum part size into the machine and still can drill ~300mm deep holes.
It is horizontal wich is just so much better for milling cavities and especially drilling.

Downsides:
It is not quite as accurate as a Hermle, talking about 0,01mm less accurate on 5X work
The service is as good as Hermles, but i think no service is that good....

 
We have a C42 Hermle with the pallet loading system. At first I hated the way you go into the machine, but now I really like it, and you will get used to it, even though it seems weird up front. One thing I suggest, IF you go the Hermle route, get the control that lifts up and down, this was an oversight on our part and we don't have it. Basically if you don't have it, and your a tall dude, you will do allot of crouching when you walk into the pallet changer.
 
We have a C42 Hermle with the pallet loading system. At first I hated the way you go into the machine, but now I really like it, and you will get used to it, even though it seems weird up front. One thing I suggest, IF you go the Hermle route, get the control that lifts up and down, this was an oversight on our part and we don't have it. Basically if you don't have it, and your a tall dude, you will do allot of crouching when you walk into the pallet changer.
opposite with our zimmerman, i need a fkn step stool to not strain my neck to look up at the screen, LMAO
 
Both option are very good machines.

If you only want Hermle or DMG i would chose the Hermle, just because the Hermle service is a kind of its own.
If you have a breakdown, in most cases you have the parts and a techician on the next day.
The wormgear in the C axis wouldnt bother me if you dont run much 5X simultaneous. I even run a C22 with a loosend up wormgear for simultaneous work and it works fine. Sure it is slower then torque but if its not to often that doesent matter.

BUT i strongly recommend that you look into a GROB G350. Especially if, like you said, dont have to hold very firm tolerances.
IMO its the best concept for a universal CNC milling machine.
In my old job i worked on those and it was mind bogling how much easier most parts are to make.
Thanks to the "tunnel" you dont have to worry about tool length, you can load the absolut maximum part size into the machine and still can drill ~300mm deep holes.
It is horizontal wich is just so much better for milling cavities and especially drilling.

Downsides:
It is not quite as accurate as a Hermle, talking about 0,01mm less accurate on 5X work
The service is as good as Hermles, but i think no service is that good....


Ok so the wormgear isn't a big issue. That's good to hear.
Thanks for the info!

G350 is a cool machine. But out of my price range. I want to stick to 300k (euro) for my first 5 axis. I also need another 100k for automation.
 
We have a C42 Hermle with the pallet loading system. At first I hated the way you go into the machine, but now I really like it, and you will get used to it, even though it seems weird up front. One thing I suggest, IF you go the Hermle route, get the control that lifts up and down, this was an oversight on our part and we don't have it. Basically if you don't have it, and your a tall dude, you will do allot of crouching when you walk into the pallet changer.
You have the hs flex system on it?
Isn't it annoying you need to move the control each time you are in front of the machine?
A camera inside the machine would work for some visibility, when setting up stuff.
 
Ok so the wormgear isn't a big issue. That's good to hear.
Thanks for the info!

G350 is a cool machine. But out of my price range. I want to stick to 300k (euro) for my first 5 axis. I also need another 100k for automation.
look into GF mikron Mill E500/700 series.
 
You have the hs flex system on it?
Isn't it annoying you need to move the control each time you are in front of the machine?
A camera inside the machine would work for some visibility, when setting up stuff.
It is not the flex system, just a standard 800mm pallet. Moving the control is not really that big of a deal to me. When I leave it out too far someone coming by with a fork truck always pushes it in and I have to move it go get in. I never really thought twice about it.
 
Ok so the wormgear isn't a big issue. That's good to hear.
Thanks for the info!

G350 is a cool machine. But out of my price range. I want to stick to 300k (euro) for my first 5 axis. I also need another 100k for automation.

Do you have a quote from GROB?
Afaik they are pretty similiar to Hermle (but probably more to the C32), i also like their automation.
 
Do you have a quote from GROB?
Afaik they are pretty similiar to Hermle (but probably more to the C32), i also like their automation.
A c32 is out of budget 😅
C12 and c250 is in the budget
C12 is too small though.


Got pricing of the dmu50
Its on the same level as the c250
 
- Tools are limited to around 40
- Loading tools from the magazine is a pita according to people who use the machine
- the 500 model is in price more than the dmu50 and c250. With comparable options around 20 to 30k more.
- there seems to be a slight disadvantage in stability when y extends compared to the other models
- i never saw a local company have these entry level mikrons. The companies that do have mikrons all get the P versions

But you can add factory automation faily cheap! Pallet pool (although quite small) is only around 45k.
Steptec spindle is a nice
Same goes for the direct drive motors on the tables...crazy fast
 
- Tools are limited to around 40
- Loading tools from the magazine is a pita according to people who use the machine
- the 500 model is in price more than the dmu50 and c250. With comparable options around 20 to 30k more.
- there seems to be a slight disadvantage in stability when y extends compared to the other models
- i never saw a local company have these entry level mikrons. The companies that do have mikrons all get the P versions

But you can add factory automation faily cheap! Pallet pool (although quite small) is only around 45k.
Steptec spindle is a nice
Same goes for the direct drive motors on the tables...crazy fast
standard tool mag on the E series is 30, but 60 tools is not a lot more. stability, ya, you're right, but still very good compared to any other machine that isnt 100k more.
i havent had any issues loading tools in the ones i worked with.
 








 
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