98 Haas VF-2 wont boot vector drive fault, MOCON & processor halt lights.

[friesen]

I'm not sure, but I think typical PC power supplies require a minimum load, so I would suspect that is the issue with the low voltage. Are any caps on the board puffed?

 

[dwilley]

They are all surface mount so can't tell. I am definitely going to try the C40 replacement countryguy recommended before I send the board out for repair. You never know, I have worked doing electronics repair in my last job and a lot of times it is a simple $0.03 part that causes boards not to work. The company I work for had the same stance as most places now just throw the board away and buy a new one. I work in a very unique industry where some of our circuit boards cost crazy dollars. I remember they were talking about starting to repair one board that was obsolete that was $125,000 (no joke). We were in the process of replacing all of the circuit cards we had most of which are $10,000 to $25,000 a piece. I have thrown hundreds of these (working) cards away. Really sad.

 

[dwilley]

Could someone do me a favor and look at there MOCON board the next time they power up there machine. Is the Halt light on until the machine is reset. It seems odd that I have a failure on 2 boards. Or is there something common to both that is bad like the power supply. I recently fixed our CNC plasma cutter at work that had a bad power supply. I replaced the puffed caps and got the power supply to come on but the machine would still not boot up until I installed a new power supply. I'm going to power up the boards with a brand new computer power supply and see if it boots up just to rule that out. Thanks

 

[dwilley]

Sorry did you mean inside the power supply? I haven't opened it up yet. I'm going to try a new power supply first. Thanks.

I'm not sure, but I think typical PC power supplies require a minimum load, so I would suspect that is the issue with the low voltage. Are any caps on the board puffed?

 

[countryguy]

I just noticed something important.. ( I think so anyway), The image below (from a post several prior) shows 0 zero BBU RAM from the special Haas 'basic OS' page (not sure what that mode is called?). A google search for Haas BBU Ram on the images link shows a bunch if similar images w/ 1mb, 8mb and 16mb options. So... it's either scrambled or something is wrong w/ the board.


I have seen posts in the past when researching mine where BBU Ram is corrupt, scrambled, etc. The fix, noted on most is to clear BBU Ram (only BBU Ram) and reload from the PROM side to BBU-Ram. (Below is a thread copy on those instructions from the web. Anyone disagree w/ the advice to get BBU Ram cleared and see if the basic OS page starts counting BBU-RAM from 0k to xK? (or suggestions if they have seen this before).


1.- Power on + PRGRM CONVRS button [access to basic OS]
2.- Typed M 6000000 60FFFFF [Clear the BBU-RAM, see manual posted above]
3.- Restarted the machine [Start blinking and power off countdown same way after battery depletion]
4.- Typed DEBUG -> (machine model*). Machine restart on Its own. [*Important: Make sure to input the correct machine type, won't be the same to input VF2 or VF2D]
5.- PARAMS -> P7 (off) [unlock the parameter modification] -> P26 (type serial code) -> P7 (on)

As for the Power supply- I think your fine for this round. You are able to access base OS ,CPU is running, Video board is working.... I would try to get past the BBU-Ram 0K for now.

On C40- if you can get to base OS mode, Run a few commands (like the M noted above) on the keyboard, and get output back on the cursor , and do not get a bunch of 'j' of 'g' or 'e' stuff on the screen, I think you can safely say that your -12 RS232 for the pendant comms is working for now and C40 can wait as well.

In Summary- I think I've been suggesting stuff as a 'shotgun' which works when blind, and now see that 0K BBURam is the challenge at hand. IMO...

 

[dwilley]

Ya I called my hfo and they said I should see some bbu memory. If its erased would it show 0k? It's like it can't read it. I will have to check again but I dont think I can type anything in monitor mode. Not sure why. Does the processor chip use serial communication to read the bbu ram? Could it be a power issue or bad c40 causing it to not read the bbu ram? Thanks.

 

[dwilley]

I called Haas directly and they were not much help. I was trying to figure out if a 34-3090A1 board is equivalent to the 34-3090A I have installed. Does anyone know?

 

[friesen]

There seem to be a number of different board revs. I think that the core issue is whether or not there is the same amount of flash, cpu ram, and bbu ram. The more there is, the newer software you can install.

You could post good resolution pictures for both sides of the old board.

 

[dwilley]

Here a side by side of the 2 boards which is the best I can do right now. I will take a good picture of the processor board this weekend when I remove it again. I still don't understand why the MOCON board halt light is on. Is this light always on until power up restart is pressed? Or, do I have a common problem? Can someone please look at there MOCON board on initial power up to see if the halt light is on? Thanks.

There seem to be a number of different board revs. I think that the core issue is whether or not there is the same amount of flash, cpu ram, and bbu ram. The more there is, the newer software you can install.

You could post good resolution pictures for both sides of the old board.

 

[dwilley]

Ok just called Haas direct and learned something everyone but me may already know. The part number on the white tag is not the part number of the processor. In my case 34-3090A is actually the part number for just the board itself which is part of an assembly which is part number 32-3090A which is what is listed inside the machine. So this may be the original processor. He said that the board I am looking at buying (34-3090A1) is the same it just has 1MB of RAM whereas mine has 256KB. But it should work so he says. I'm still waiting to talk to Rich who was recommended above.

 

[dwilley]

Did some troubleshooting today. I powered up the board with a brand new power supply on the bench and the board powers up with no Halt light. Its hard to see in the picture but the Halt light is dim which per the manual is normal. The program light is on solid not blinking like the old power supply. I have seen some threads where people have modified regular ATX power supplies to use in HAAS machines. Does anyone have any experience doing this. I can't use the power supply I used for testing because it doesn't have a -5V like the old one that goes to the power distribution board. The old power supply caps look fine to me. I want to put a known good supply in the machine to make sure its not the power distribution board. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks again.

 

[dwilley]

So I found out that this is an AT style power supply. I have found I can either buy an ATX to AT adapter for $4 or an entire new power supply for $30. ATX power supplies don't have a -5V output like the AT style. Do the controls need -5V? None of the boards have -5V going to them.

Edit: I went ahead and bought a new power supply. This might not be the problem but this is a cheap thing to try before I buy a used board or send it out for repair.

 

[countryguy]

Just to maintain the thread a bit further. We chatted and found some further info. The unit has been intermittent and would sometimes boot to BBURam based OS, and infrequently, would boot to the scrambled screen (pic in prior threads). A power cycle would usually resolve the issue.

with this info, it it speculation but the BBU-Ram based program is probably still in-tact but there is a failure which causes the BBU-Ram program to be inaccessible (as monitor-mode shows 0 zero K BBU-RAM found).

Suggested possibly using cold and heat to isolate to bad component. This has worked for me in the past with very positive results. Possibly examine w/ stereo microscope or large Magnifying glass once isolated. Have seen some odd things (trace snaps, cold joint, micro burr , etc. who knows.... probably a bad component but it's worth ruling out.

Wondering aloud:
What we don't know (if anyone else does know....) does the CPU board need to chat w/ the SKBIF board before it gets into BBU-RAM boot OS access? Why? In following the threads, the Monitor mode can be accessed. (PGM-power-on) but the use of the keyboard does not work. There is still no way to clear the BBU Ram and issue a reload even if desired. To talk back and forth from the SKBIF via RS-232 to/from the CPU should work in monitor mode I would think? ... the joy's of old gear w/ no open support.

Anyway, next steps will be the Power supply change out, possibly C40 change (heck... for a quarter why not) and then we'll see. Wish him luck!

So I found out that this is an AT style power supply. I have found I can either buy an ATX to AT adapter for $4 or an entire new power supply for $30. ATX power supplies don't have a -5V output like the AT style. Do the controls need -5V? None of the boards have -5V going to them.

Edit: I went ahead and bought a new power supply. This might not be the problem but this is a cheap thing to try before I buy a used board or send it out for repair.

 

[dwilley]

The scrambled screen (all J's) was happening every once in a while before this issue. This is also the screen that I get when I disconnect the data and address cables from the processor. I can always go into monitor mode (PGM-power-on) and it always shows 0k of BBU RAM. Still waiting on new power supply to rule that out first then I will be digging in deeper. I will keep you posted on my progress. Thanks.

 

[countryguy]

Thanks D. I guess I wondered if someone knew why in Monitor mode, not only do you see 0KB BBU Ram, but you are not able to get any keystrokes to echo back. So pushing a "M" for example to clear ram does nothing for you on screen. So.. either this is part of the same issue or yet another issue.

When the beast boots up into monitor mode it must see you holding the key. so that seems to say it's getting the keypress via SKBIF, 232 and into the CPU board I think...
Then the prom and monitor mode go into their dance of the CPU to interview and get you some info. (in this case 0K BBU ram noted as one of the lines).
I am wondering here if that 'no key echo' condition is due to getting to that part in the prom monitor mode dance which it then 'locks up'? Thus you you press "M" and do not see the echo... Nor could you erase BBU ram if you wanted. That's what I was really wondering in my post. I think it's all the same issue.... but was just thinking aloud in the post.... Comon' power supply. (waving arms and wishing it some magic for ya).

 

[dwilley]

I went through and pressed every key on the controller in monitor mode. Nothing appears on the screen just beeps when keys are pressed. The power supply should be here today. Its a long shot but you never know it might just work. If not I will probably be purchasing a used processor board. Thanks.

 

[Milland]

Cheers for your persistence and willingness to document the issues and fix attempts. Good luck going forward!

 

[countryguy]

If it boots. Do not power off until you get your parameters saved to disk or usb. Get a floppy ready. Some of the save offs can be tricky to find. You will make 4 files. Ping me if ya need a hand.

I went through and pressed every key on the controller in monitor mode. Nothing appears on the screen just beeps when keys are pressed. The power supply should be here today. Its a long shot but you never know it might just work. If not I will probably be purchasing a used processor board. Thanks.

 

[dwilley]

Ok, I replaced the power supply and it didn't fix the problem. However, for some reason I am able to type in monitor mode now. So I could try to clear the BBU RAM. I am still reluctant to do it because I think my parameters are still stored in RAM. It may be the only way to fix it. I just want to be sure it is the processor but I am about out of things to try. One other that that I noticed is that I don't think the Halt light is on. The manual says it should be on dim but it is hard to tell when the card is installed. If you look close it is dimmer than the other lights. So right now the PGM light is blinking which I don't think is right. I noticed that when I remove the connector to the SKBIF board the PGM light is on solid (see pics). Not sure what that means. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks.

 

[countryguy]

ok... so we have the keyboard working in monitor mode. good to hear there. Re. RAM-BBU being there or not: If there is a bad PAL or some logic allowing the RAM access, then it's not going to come out w/o some type of repair anyway. (even then they will probably loose or dump it in the repair process possibly). Or there is a bby-ram failure and it's really not there now either. tough call !

If it were mine, I would be trying the HEat/freeze but it's so so hard to get in there when all connected. It can be done. It was really difficult to get things connected and leave only the CPU on the stand-offs to allow testing. but you need to yank all the cable from the tray's for slack, lay down the top boards connected w/ two of the standoff's used for holding those two... blah blah.. you'll figure it out if you want to pursue. sucks putting all the cables back in too. :-(

I wish we had some other comments from a few of the board guys. We're just garage guys w/ no income generation from them yet.

OK, Before you did try the RAM clear command, if it were my system I would:

TRy the heat/cold on the CPU and see if I could get to a failed component area. We may get some further help in here.
TRy to contact the old owner or find out who serviced the unit in the past (from PA?) where ya got it. Someone has those files I would think.
Give the RAM clear a shot. If it clears, and suddenly you are able to go back to DEBUG and reload from PROM... you at least know the system is repaired and you can move into recovery. Now it's just limbo until we know. If it won't clear the BBU-RAM... you need to find the failing component(s) or get a spare board and we'll know where you stand.

Ping/txt my cell if you want to chat later... I'm working on horse fencing. A rescue from that chore most welcome!
If this BBU-RAM clear does seem to work, then you need to see the post above that noted to reload from DEBUG. post #25!

Ok, I replaced the power supply and it didn't fix the problem. However, for some reason I am able to type in monitor mode now. So I could try to clear the BBU RAM. I am still reluctant to do it because I think my parameters are still stored in RAM. It may be the only way to fix it. I just want to be sure it is the processor but I am about out of things to try. One other that that I noticed is that I don't think the Halt light is on. The manual says it should be on dim but it is hard to tell when the card is installed. If you look close it is dimmer than the other lights. So right now the PGM light is blinking which I don't think is right. I noticed that when I remove the connector to the SKBIF board the PGM light is on solid (see pics). Not sure what that means. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks.

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