A36 Die Set Components

[JoeKee]

I'm new to die design and the stamping industry. I have designed a simple stamping die, generated drawings and now ready to reach out for quotes. There are a few things things I need help understanding so I can start designing for manufacturability from the onset in the future.

1.5" thick x 10" x 20" A36 plates are the upper and lower die shoes

I'm updating the thickness of the material to reflect the machining operations, so correct me where I'm wrong here with these assumptions. To reduce cost to create the part I need, I'm going to assume a shop would rather take a piece of 1.5" thick A36 stock plate and flame cut it. Then blanchard grind .030" off each side, set up in a mill/edm for the machining operations for the dowel holes, threads, thru holes, and cleanup of the perimeter of the plate.

If I take into account the material tolerance (guessing max 1/32) and .030 blanchard operation on each side, it would make more sense to call out a thickness of 1.404 + or - .005 instead.

I'll be designing more and more die sets in the future and I'm really looking to better understand this from what's the most practical and easiest from a machinists perspective so I can reduce cost and create clearer prints.

 

[TGTool]

What about saving time for the die shop by using a Danly die set and focus on the unique parts for your tool.

 

[JoeKee]

I'd be submitting the drawing package to a manufacturer to machine and assemble the die set. In that case, would you recommend just using the Danly part number for that die set in my BOM?

If my pressure plates inside the die are 1.25" A36, would it make sense to do what I said above and just assume .030" is going to be shaved off of each side of stock, take into account minimum material thickness, and adjust that 1.25 to reflect it.

 

[Strostkovy]

I'm no pro but why A36? I get that it's cheap but I always hear it's tough to achieve a good surface finish.

I'd also have concerns about your ground plate warping after machining.

 

[JoeKee]

I'm no pro but why A36? I get that it's cheap but I always hear it's tough to achieve a good surface finish.

I'd also have concerns about your ground plate warping after machining.

The plan is to use A36 for the die set and upper and lower pressure (backing) plates, and tool steel for the everything else.

 

[AD Design]

I'm not the last word for die design. No stamping house I've ever worked for made their own die sets, Danly and Superior were the go to even when the shops had the machinery/ability to make their own. Something as simple and basic as setting the leader pins/bushings can be a either a time consuming operation or a friction/heat generating failure point.

Dowel pin placement in proximity to the leader pins is part of designing the die for ease of construction. All other holes can often be put in from the back side, depending upon whether these are face or back mounted.

Tool steel components for everything else? If you're calling 4140 PH a tool steel then that's fine. No point using A-2 for large sections (stripper, upper/lower plates, lifters, pressure pads, etc.) unless excessive wear is anticipated. More cost effective to use hardened tool steel as inserts for ease of removal for sharpening and smaller shims. You can even consider Fortal (7075) for smaller die sets that aren't subject to big tonnage for ease of handling. Your lower die shoe should also have enough material in it to avoid deformation if on risers. Usually component design will attempt to do only what machining is required per a given component. Nominal stock sizes are often just a clean up on the surface grinder so faces are flat and square to the sides (if in a pocket) Inserts are given one corner with a different radius so installation can only be one way. Lowering costs also means an eye to maintenance is considered.

If you're new to stamping and die design there's plenty to read and research, very advisable. Not knowing your applications it's difficult to offer much advise but these are a few factors to consider in design:

1) Type of die (single station, progressive, compound, draw, fine blanking, coining, etc.)

2) Type of press (OBI, hydraulic, high speed, transfer)

3) Type of stripper (spring, box, guided, or a combination)

4) Face or back mounting for components. There's advantages/disadvantages for both.

5) Ball lock perforators or headed perforators (advantages/disadvantages for both

6) Expected die life? this greatly affects the die design

7) Cam assist for forming operations?

8) Standardized shut height for all other dies going in the same press?

9) Slug control and and part ejection (pneumatic, mechanical, gravity, vibratory, etc)

10) Less common operations (In die tapping)

11) Sensor systems for die protection (slug packing, feed buckle, short feed, perforator breakage, doubling, part detect, etc.) One die crash can pay for the cost of the sensor system. Tonnage monitors on all presses? There should be.

12) Die locators for reducing die change-over time, align with center of coil feeder.


There's a lot more to say but I may be giving advice to questions that weren't asked. I'll go sit down in the back row now.

 

[DDoug]

I'd be submitting the drawing package to a manufacturer to machine and assemble the die set. In that case, would you recommend just using the Danly part number for that die set in my BOM?

"Or engineering approved equiv." note after your Danly part number.

 

[DDoug]

If my pressure plates inside the die are 1.25" A36, would it make sense to do what I said above and just assume .030" is going to be shaved off of each side of stock, take into account minimum material thickness, and adjust that 1.25 to reflect it.

As others have said, leave that part to the people that doo it all day long, for many years.

 

[Thunderjet]

I'm not the last word for die design. No stamping house I've ever worked for made their own die sets, Danly and Superior were the go to even when the shops had the machinery/ability to make their own.

Listen to this guy^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.

I've build hundreds of stamping dies. I've NEVER made my own die set, other than little tiny ones for an air press.

If I were you, I'd find a good stamping house an take them your PART. Let Them design the die. This will be cheaper, and quicker in the end. Trust me.

If you wish to go this route, I'd lOve to give it a try.

P/M sent.

 

[rogertoolmaker]

Obtain your Die Sets from Danly or Superior. There in that business and can produce the die sets cheaper than you can. I have built my own die sets for special application. After flame-cut Normalize the steel, then grind. Since you did not show a piece part to be produced and annual requirement; it is impossible to do you justice in trying to assist you.

Roger

 

[AD Design]

I'm new to die design and the stamping industry..

I'll be designing more and more die sets in the future and I'm really looking to better understand this from what's the most practical and easiest from a machinists perspective so I can reduce cost and create clearer prints.

-Gee....so much to learn and zero response after 2 months. Nothing wrong with being new at something, we all are/were at the beginning. But I sometimes wonder why some would post and then disappear. It's not like they got ALL the info they wanted and likely have more questions if/when prompted by further research. Hope the new batch of folks working/designing stamping dies are doing well finding their own way, the experience pool is draining away daily. Ganbatte.

 

[Thunderjet]

-Gee....so much to learn and zero response after 2 months. Nothing wrong with being new at something, we all are/were at the beginning. But I sometimes wonder why some would post and then disappear. It's not like they got ALL the info they wanted and likely have more questions if/when prompted by further research. Hope the new batch of folks working/designing stamping dies are doing well finding their own way, the experience pool is draining away daily. Ganbatte.

Kind of par for the course in my experience anyway.

Old school guys scratched backs and returned favors, but no more.

Old Guy Alert!
Get off my lawn.....now!

 

[TGTool]

Maybe he learned everything he needed in a very short time. There are new routes to knowledge for folks these days.

"Everything I know I learned from the telly; the bigger the telly the smarter the man. You can tell from my big telly what a clever fellow I am." Musical 'Matilda'