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Advice Needed- First CNC Mill for prototyping and small batch mfg in home shop

EnduroRider

Plastic
Joined
Dec 18, 2022
Cliff notes:
Haas TM series v Tormach 1100 v CNC Knee Mill for prototyping and low volume production in residential garage.
80% Aluminum, 20% stainless, $60k max budget (but would prefer to stay under if possible).
Cost vs capability vs size.

Details:

I'm a workaholic with a small software business doing some niche stuff in the auto and marine industries. I want to get into some hardware and bring some of my product ideas to life. My intention is primarily niche stuff that is high margin and low volume...think German cars and speed boats. I do not have commercial space, and do not want to cover that overhead for at least 2 years. I do have a 2 car residential (attached) garage loaded with the typical tools / equipment of a serious auto/motorcycle enthusiast and amateur fabricator (space is tight but not terrible). Single phase, 50A 220V is in the garage now, and 3 phase would require an RPC. I also plan to move in about 2 years, so that's another consideration in this equation.

I have good mechanical abilities but i have no experience whatsoever in machining. I have no interest in learning on a manual mill. Zero. Spending days beside a Bridgeport turning wheels while watching an endmill creep along is close to my idea of hell, and with my existing workload i do not have the time or patience to make batches of parts that way. I work a ton of hours now to meet contractual obligations, which is a major hurdle in getting the next endeavors off the ground. In the long run, my time is much better spent working on CAD/CAM in Fusion 360 so i can use CNC to automate the machining process and have a machine make parts while i'm free to work on software and try to get those parts sold.

Given the fact that i'm not looking for high volume, machine speed is low on my list of priorities. The vast majority of products i have in mind would fit in a small machine, but it would be great to have the flexibility of larger travels. I value this more than machine speed, but the downside being floor space which is already in short supply. I'd really like to avoid going below travels of about 20x10".

Year end is here and my business has $60k available that i can put towards this, but i would still rather a down payment, finance the remainder, and keep extra cash on hand for flexibility / other things. Worth noting that Haas denied me for financing even with a significant down payment. I have no idea why, i have an 800+ credit score, almost no debt, never once had a late payment on anything, and am in solid financial shape. They claim they ran both the business credit and my personal credit and denied both, so i'd have to either get outside financing or write a check for the full amount if i went that route.

I got a quote from my local Haas dealer for a TM-1P with probe & basic tooling. That came out at $54k shipped ($3500 of that is tooling) and i'd still have to pay a rigger to get it off the truck and move a nearly 5000lb machine into my garage. I'm sure some other minor expenses will be incurred, so probably $58k before the first chips. There are a few major hang-ups with this machine...It occupies a lot of space (in a garage at least) and needs 107" ceiling height so that is going to limit where in the garage I can put it. It would be much better to have the back close to a wall, but with the size and weight, when i need access to the back it's going to be a project to move...not to mention relocating in a couple years.

The TM-0P falls into sort of a no man's land, it can be moved in the garage on a pallet jack but is too big to lift with anything i have available at home. The value proposition of the TM series makes more sense for me than the Mini Mills. I'm sure the TM-0P would still do 99% of what i'd ask of it while being slightly cheaper, smaller and lighter than the TM-1P.

This brings me to something even lighter duty, like Tormach. I know they have come a long way, but it's hard to stomach the pricing for a light duty machine. Comparably equipped with an ATC and shipping it's a $40k machine. Realistically about a $14k difference from the TM-0P when the higher shipping, rigging, etc costs of the Haas are considered. It's a lot less machine but that also has benefits in my case. It fits in a better part of the garage, I can lift it, move it as needed, etc. It'll only take a 12 pack and a pizza to get it on and off a trailer. I also assume i wouldn't have any issue with financing, and that's a very nice bonus.

One of the other ways i could approach this is something like a CNC knee mill. It would give me good travels and a lot of flexibility with less floor space needed, borderline movable, etc. Very slow, lack of enclosure is a pain point and without an ATC, it may push me more into just doing the prototyping / initial batches, and eventually subbing out production (assuming volume makes sense)...but that might be the way to go until i feel more comfortable carrying overhead for more space. I haven't gotten quotes on these yet but it looks like something from CNC Masters would be on my floor and making parts with good options (digital edge finder, tool height setter, rigid tapping, and dedicate touch screen computer) for under $20K...which would have been the down payment on the Haas. There are a half dozen other companies that make similar setups (but don't publish pricing). I don't have enough knowledge of the control systems to understand how big of a limitation / pain point the control systems on these machines are vs something mainstream like Haas.

I'd really like to get into something that has a warranty and support, but i'm not opposed to other models and/or used machines. As far as used machines, there is nothing local from Haas that is not either outdated/unsupported or too close to new pricing. It would be great if i had more time to wait/shop, but for tax reasons i do not. There are a couple of Tormachs that look like they were bought as base model machines and half-ass DIY upgraded (no thanks). There is what appears to be a good condition Alliant 49x9 knee mill a few hours north that looks like it has had a nice CNC retrofit done with good components for $7500. Outside of that i'd have to travel or take someone's word for the condition of a machine.

Help me unfuck myself, other machines to consider, view from a machinist's perspective, etc!

Thanks!
 
Honestly, send out the work you need machined. Machining comes with its own headaches and problems, and unexpected costs are always a thing. Long story short, you are better of dedicating your time to running the business and I'm guessing designing your products and fine tuning them, vs. trying to design, fixture, program, set up, run, maintain, order material, deal with customers, etc and a VMC.

That's weird that Haas declined you, I had a friend do 50% down on his first machine and had someone co sign, but that's because his business was 0 months old.

I think you would be disappointed with the TM machine and the other machines do not perform better than the TM, you'll save money upfront with your machine purchase, but will loose in production time and your time. Look into a phase converter and see if you can get yourself at least a VF2.

One thing to keep in mind, in my experience, Haas machines are like Ready to Run RC cars, they are 95% complete out of the box and the other 5% needs to be completed by you or the tech. Now, this 5% can vary vastly per machine in machine operating hours to service required. Example, we recently got a new loaded DT2, has ran for a total of 50 hours and the tech has been here for 23 hours. Its now listed for sale.
 
How much hand work after machining are you interested in doing?
I have a masters Supra, can tell you the 3 big issues with it from Omar: lacks power to steppers, honestly if they ran real power to the motors I wouldn’t hesitate on price point. Back engineering a way to get power to them is an option that wouldn’t be that expensive. The quill to screw has flex, you get creative in cam to minimize this-or maximize it which is how I deal with it. No enclosure. No atc, you get better at cam, and learn to use just a few tools for 98 percent of your work.
It does not finish as nice as haas mini, about the same as the tm from what I have seen. Super simple control, which is good for you if you are not into metal work, more into design/bizzness work.
I have replaced my controller and added power, misters, air blast, 4th, tool height measuring... if you are running stainless would be less issue than aluminum. Low voltage power supply limit you acceleration and speed to snails pace especially in 3 axis surfacing, Your spindle speed is slow for aluminum (from what I’ve read, I do not allow al near my machine. Stinky nasty material.). I wish I had rigid tap.

The good is it is a knee mill that has no enclosure, you can get anything in it. It cuts steel and bronze in the shape and size you ask it to. I like it. It is not a vf (for size reference) series mill, do not expect that.

I got mine used, took shopping for a while. Keep your eye out at used mills.
 
I’d look for a used VF-2 with an umbrella toolchanger and run it on a Phase Perfect 20HP Digital Phase Converter. For reference, I’ve got a 2021 Haas VF-2YT in my garage, stuffed it thru an 83” tall garage door. Currently running it on an American Rotary 15HP RPC without any issues but would be better in a Phase Perfect.

I’d either go this route or Haas Mini Mill. Wouldn’t bother with a TM personally.

Shoot me a DM if you’d like to discuss details further. I can send you contact info for the financing company I used as well as the spot I purchased it from. Both were great to work with.
 
Or save a butt load of money. I have a Tree Journeyman 325 I would sell. It is a knee mill about the size of a Bridgeport but it weighs 2x. Dynapath Delta 20 control. Dynapath is still in business and supports the control. Tree is gone but parts are available. 40 taper. I have a 7500 RPM spindle kit that I will include. It has a full set of manuals and about 15 or 20 toolholders, about half are new. It is in Marysville Ohio 4500.00 or offer. What ever you do don't buy a Toymach er, Tormach
 
TM-1 at $15k is a reasonable garage starter machine. At $50k it's ridiculous. Is Haas actually making sales at that price?

From the situation you describe I think the ability to prototype could make sense, then farm out the production runs. If the doomsayers are right there will plenty of guys on here next year with some free spindle time to take on the work.

Knowing what I know now, I'd look for a used 30 taper with a 4th axis. You can prototype and iterate fast, most moderately complex parts are still only two operations. You can do what should be lathe parts if you only need a couple. They're small and sip power. But they do crash fast when you're new, TM's do have that going for them.

Crashing in slow motion, that is.
 
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A Brother Speedio as drcoelho suggests would certainly fit the bill. You could also save a lot of money and go with an older model with an A00 control (A or B suffix models I believe). They lack the memory and look ahead of the later controls making them slower at 3D contouring and requiring drip feeding high speed toolpaths, but that doesn't sound like a concern and you'd save ~$40-50k. I run my S2B off an American Rotary AD20 on a 30 amp breaker without issue. They are also still supported by Brother, which is basically as good as a warranty but only costs you anything if you need it. If you go that route, make sure it supports G code, as some are conversational only. A Robodrill could be another good option, but I have no experience with them.
 
Only you can answer whether you are better off doing the work in-house vs sending it out.

But as far as machines go... I'm really happy with my Speedio, but it's not going to be a $60K problem (especially if you need tooling). Have you looked at a used Haas Super Mini? The standard Mini-Mills are a bit gutless but the Super Mini isn't bad.
 
one or 2 parts, don't waste your $
sub it out to many small shops around the country.
might cost you $100 twice a year. yet all the cnc stuff will be a couple grand a month cost. plus many hours to set up etc.
cnc makes sense if you are subbing out tons of work each month.
why spend 60k to save $10. you can invest the 60K and get 8% return other places.
 
why spend 60k to save $10. you can invest the 60K and get 8% return other places.

Or give moonlight $4500 and have the ability to do all your prototyping changes right when you want, just out in the garage ... Curve looks funky ? let's make it bigger ...

I've also seen some cute small stuff here for way less than $60,000. For people who can do their own maintenance, I should go look harder. One that I thought was clever had a rack of tools, maybe eight. Door would open, spindle drop down, leave one and grab another. Pretty simple way to do tool changing, not very much to break. Could be plenty for a home shop ...
 
I have no interest in learning on a manual mill. Zero.
That's where your lack of machining experience is showing.
Everyone should have to learn on manual machines, it gives them knowledge that you cannot get from a cnc and in the long run it makes you a better machinist.
The Tormach is the worst thing to happen in recent times. It gives people a false sense of hope that they can make parts. Once they hop on a real cnc, they always realize that the Tormach is one giant piece of shit. Will it make parts? Yes. can you use a hammer and chisel and be faster than a Tormach and make prettier parts? Also yes.
 
That's where your lack of machining experience is showing.
Everyone should have to learn on manual machines, it gives them knowledge that you cannot get from a cnc and in the long run it makes you a better machinist.
I don't agree with the rest of his post but this is the most important thing. I started out with the "why bother with manual when I have access to cnc" mindset. After spending a year working manual mills before even being allowed to load parts in a cnc at my first job it completely changed and improved the approach I took with CNC and I became a much better for it.

Also, get a pallet jack or machine skates for at home if you're concerned about not being able to move stuff. You can slide the pallet jack under the machine when it's not being used and you'd be surprised at how convenient it is to have around.
 
Cliff notes:
Haas TM series v Tormach 1100 v CNC Knee Mill for prototyping and low volume production in residential garage.
80% Aluminum, 20% stainless, $60k max budget (but would prefer to stay under if possible).
Cost vs capability vs size.

Details:

I'm a workaholic with a small software business doing some niche stuff in the auto and marine industries. I want to get into some hardware and bring some of my product ideas to life. My intention is primarily niche stuff that is high margin and low volume...think German cars and speed boats. I do not have commercial space, and do not want to cover that overhead for at least 2 years. I do have a 2 car residential (attached) garage loaded with the typical tools / equipment of a serious auto/motorcycle enthusiast and amateur fabricator (space is tight but not terrible). Single phase, 50A 220V is in the garage now, and 3 phase would require an RPC. I also plan to move in about 2 years, so that's another consideration in this equation.

I have good mechanical abilities but i have no experience whatsoever in machining. I have no interest in learning on a manual mill. Zero. Spending days beside a Bridgeport turning wheels while watching an endmill creep along is close to my idea of hell, and with my existing workload i do not have the time or patience to make batches of parts that way. I work a ton of hours now to meet contractual obligations, which is a major hurdle in getting the next endeavors off the ground. In the long run, my time is much better spent working on CAD/CAM in Fusion 360 so i can use CNC to automate the machining process and have a machine make parts while i'm free to work on software and try to get those parts sold.

Given the fact that i'm not looking for high volume, machine speed is low on my list of priorities. The vast majority of products i have in mind would fit in a small machine, but it would be great to have the flexibility of larger travels. I value this more than machine speed, but the downside being floor space which is already in short supply. I'd really like to avoid going below travels of about 20x10".

Year end is here and my business has $60k available that i can put towards this, but i would still rather a down payment, finance the remainder, and keep extra cash on hand for flexibility / other things. Worth noting that Haas denied me for financing even with a significant down payment. I have no idea why, i have an 800+ credit score, almost no debt, never once had a late payment on anything, and am in solid financial shape. They claim they ran both the business credit and my personal credit and denied both, so i'd have to either get outside financing or write a check for the full amount if i went that route.

I got a quote from my local Haas dealer for a TM-1P with probe & basic tooling. That came out at $54k shipped ($3500 of that is tooling) and i'd still have to pay a rigger to get it off the truck and move a nearly 5000lb machine into my garage. I'm sure some other minor expenses will be incurred, so probably $58k before the first chips. There are a few major hang-ups with this machine...It occupies a lot of space (in a garage at least) and needs 107" ceiling height so that is going to limit where in the garage I can put it. It would be much better to have the back close to a wall, but with the size and weight, when i need access to the back it's going to be a project to move...not to mention relocating in a couple years.

The TM-0P falls into sort of a no man's land, it can be moved in the garage on a pallet jack but is too big to lift with anything i have available at home. The value proposition of the TM series makes more sense for me than the Mini Mills. I'm sure the TM-0P would still do 99% of what i'd ask of it while being slightly cheaper, smaller and lighter than the TM-1P.

This brings me to something even lighter duty, like Tormach. I know they have come a long way, but it's hard to stomach the pricing for a light duty machine. Comparably equipped with an ATC and shipping it's a $40k machine. Realistically about a $14k difference from the TM-0P when the higher shipping, rigging, etc costs of the Haas are considered. It's a lot less machine but that also has benefits in my case. It fits in a better part of the garage, I can lift it, move it as needed, etc. It'll only take a 12 pack and a pizza to get it on and off a trailer. I also assume i wouldn't have any issue with financing, and that's a very nice bonus.

One of the other ways i could approach this is something like a CNC knee mill. It would give me good travels and a lot of flexibility with less floor space needed, borderline movable, etc. Very slow, lack of enclosure is a pain point and without an ATC, it may push me more into just doing the prototyping / initial batches, and eventually subbing out production (assuming volume makes sense)...but that might be the way to go until i feel more comfortable carrying overhead for more space. I haven't gotten quotes on these yet but it looks like something from CNC Masters would be on my floor and making parts with good options (digital edge finder, tool height setter, rigid tapping, and dedicate touch screen computer) for under $20K...which would have been the down payment on the Haas. There are a half dozen other companies that make similar setups (but don't publish pricing). I don't have enough knowledge of the control systems to understand how big of a limitation / pain point the control systems on these machines are vs something mainstream like Haas.

I'd really like to get into something that has a warranty and support, but i'm not opposed to other models and/or used machines. As far as used machines, there is nothing local from Haas that is not either outdated/unsupported or too close to new pricing. It would be great if i had more time to wait/shop, but for tax reasons i do not. There are a couple of Tormachs that look like they were bought as base model machines and half-ass DIY upgraded (no thanks). There is what appears to be a good condition Alliant 49x9 knee mill a few hours north that looks like it has had a nice CNC retrofit done with good components for $7500. Outside of that i'd have to travel or take someone's word for the condition of a machine.

Help me unfuck myself, other machines to consider, view from a machinist's perspective, etc!

Thanks!
 
I have good mechanical abilities but i have no experience whatsoever in machining. I have no interest in learning on a manual mill. Zero. Spending days beside a Bridgeport turning wheels while watching an endmill creep along is close to my idea of hell,
This is where I stopped reading. With no experience and no interest in learning the fundamentals you're barking up the wrong tree.
 
If your time is as valuable as you describe, stay far away from hobby machines (tormach,cnc masters etc.). Try and find a real, used, 30 taper (brother, robodrill) for 40kish, spend the rest on tooling RPC etc.

Be aware, it will take a significant amount of time to learn machining, manual or CNC if you've never done it. The current software tools are great, but they won't help you learn machining. Be prepared for a huge learning curve unless you know someone who can help you get started. Been there, done that. Started with a cnc masters, moved up to a Novakon (same as tormach but bigger). Now using a Brother S500. There is no comparison to a hobby toy vs a industrial machine.
 
If you would like a point of reference, I have a used VF-1 in my shop behind my garage and a Slant Jr. The VF-1 will go in through a garage door if the mast is taken down and put on skates. I moved it later using 1-1/2" round steel bars and a pry bar. The rigger moved the Slant into position on skates.
I bought used machines because I did not have the money to spend on new. I prototype parts and then give them to a shop to manufacture. That way I can continue to prototype and not worry about tolerances and mistakes ( you get lots of those when learning - DOH! forgot to reset that tool height!). I have a rotary converter for the three phase.
If you do not have a CAM program you will spend lots of time working out moves in g code. CNC machines only know circular arcs and straight lines. An ellipse or spline has to be broken up into many straight lines or circular arcs. That can be really tedious.
Surfacing can easily take thousands of lines of g code.
The '91 VF-1 was $7k and needed work but they are fairly easy to work on. I have changed the spindle bearings, ball screw bearings, repairs to the tool changer and wiring.
Whatever machines you get be sure there is support or enough information for you to work on it. They are not maintenance free.
 
Thanks for all the replies, a lot to consider. It seems to hinge on whether i want to prototype or produce. A lot more machine needed for production, but what kills me about prototyping only is by the time you do the CAD, CAM, fixturing, etc. to make a proper prototype, you've done much of the work you need to do a run of parts, and most of the run can be automated on an appropriate machine.

TM-1 at $15k is a reasonable garage starter machine. At $50k it's ridiculous. Is Haas actually making sales at that price?

From the situation you describe I think the ability to prototype could make sense, then farm out the production runs. If the doomsayers are right there will plenty of guys on here next year with some free spindle time to take on the work.

Knowing what I know now, I'd look for a used 30 taper with a 4th axis. You can prototype and iterate fast, most moderately complex parts are still only two operations. You can do what should be lathe parts if you only need a couple. They're small and sip power. But they do crash fast when you're new, TM's do have that going for them.

Crashing in slow motion, that is.

Seems like the general consensus is the TM series isn't a worthwhile investment. I assume they're selling plenty of them though, because the delivery time is 8-10 weeks, unless that's just the normal lead time for made to order.

That's where your lack of machining experience is showing.
Everyone should have to learn on manual machines, it gives them knowledge that you cannot get from a cnc and in the long run it makes you a better machinist.
The Tormach is the worst thing to happen in recent times. It gives people a false sense of hope that they can make parts. Once they hop on a real cnc, they always realize that the Tormach is one giant piece of shit. Will it make parts? Yes. can you use a hammer and chisel and be faster than a Tormach and make prettier parts? Also yes.

A buddy does have a 3/4 hp Bridgeport that i could play around with here and there to get a bit of hands-on time, but this would definitely not be anywhere near the level of experience of owning a manual mill.

As far as the Tormach thing, i know it's a curse word for professional machinists, but i do think there is value in them for people getting started. That said, the pricing is really high for the amount of machine you get.


I don't agree with the rest of his post but this is the most important thing. I started out with the "why bother with manual when I have access to cnc" mindset. After spending a year working manual mills before even being allowed to load parts in a cnc at my first job it completely changed and improved the approach I took with CNC and I became a much better for it.

Also, get a pallet jack or machine skates for at home if you're concerned about not being able to move stuff. You can slide the pallet jack under the machine when it's not being used and you'd be surprised at how convenient it is to have around.

I actually have a pallet jack, engine hoist, metal saws, etc so i have a head start on some things, but i have nothing machining or inspection specific.

If your time is as valuable as you describe, stay far away from hobby machines (tormach,cnc masters etc.). Try and find a real, used, 30 taper (brother, robodrill) for 40kish, spend the rest on tooling RPC etc.

Be aware, it will take a significant amount of time to learn machining, manual or CNC if you've never done it. The current software tools are great, but they won't help you learn machining. Be prepared for a huge learning curve unless you know someone who can help you get started. Been there, done that. Started with a cnc masters, moved up to a Novakon (same as tormach but bigger). Now using a Brother S500. There is no comparison to a hobby toy vs a industrial machine.

This post takes me back to when i was learning to reload ammo about 10 years ago. The general consensus was to get started with cheap and simple equipment, start with a single stage or turret press so you don't have 5-6 ops happening simultaneously, etc. I had a terrible production rate, poor quality ammo, and spent more time working on equipment than making ammo. I think i figured out i was essentially paying myself $7/hr.

I ended up ordering a bunch of quality (borderline production) equipment, my output went up 10x, the ammo quality level went through the roof, and my frustrations dropped to near nothing. My precision rifle ammo was down in the 0.2x MOA range and my pistol ammo for USPSA was extremely consistent.

I understand the importance of quality equipment, and with the exceptions of the home garage constraints i'd much rather have a used industrial machine than a new hobby one for the same money, provided the used machine is mechanically solid and current. With as big as the learning curve is on CAD, CAM, tooling, fixturing, etc, the last thing i want to do is buy a machine that turns me into a CNC mechanic.

The '91 VF-1 was $7k and needed work but they are fairly easy to work on. I have changed the spindle bearings, ball screw bearings, repairs to the tool changer and wiring.
Whatever machines you get be sure there is support or enough information for you to work on it. They are not maintenance free.

There's a balancing act for sure. Good money to be saved on older machines but much of that disappears if you end up rebuilding half of it, or if there is too much wear to hold decent tolerances. I'm afraid to take a chance on a machine on the older end of the spectrum.
 
Good money to be saved on older machines but much of that disappears if you end up rebuilding half of it, or if there is too much wear to hold decent tolerances.

I get the fear, I had it when I bought my first machine. But that's not completely true. If you're budgeting $60k and you buy an early to mid 2000's era Brother or Robodrill for ~$15k + $5k rigging, that leaves $40k for repairs and tooling. You'd have to have a real POS to spend that much on repairs. High quality industrial machines tend to have fairly expensive repairs, but they are rarely needed. There are plenty of late 80's turning centers still running production; less so for machining centers only because of the evolution of high speed machining and the modern controls needed to run them. But that works out to your benefit. Older machining centers sell cheap because they're slow, not necessarily because they won't make accurate parts any more.
 








 
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