Advice needed on buying a new or used Tormach CNC Mill

[kazlx]

Funny you should mention a Fadal 3016. I found this one on eBay earlier today.
I could pay cash for it and have money left over for shipping and some tooling.
Not being familiar with these machines, I'm pretty nervous about buying a crappy, worn out VMC.
But I will research that one and shop around more. I'm finding lots of Fadal's out in the wild.

Honestly, ebay is probably the worst possible place to buy a machine (unless you happen to find a private listing, then track it down via CL or some other means and make a deal away from ebay). Machine dealers make used car dealers look like saints. I purchased my Fadal off an ad on here. The other best way is networking and asking around. I'm on Instagram and see a lot of shops offer their used machines there when upgrading. If you know people that know you are looking, you can put the word out and find something. But if you're serious, don't be afraid to get a loan on a new machine with money down. You better get used to spending ridiculous amounts of money now. If there's anything that machining has taught me, it's enforced the 'buy once, cry once' mentality and just get used to spending money and charging appropriately for your time.

 

[kazlx]

Funny you should mention a Fadal 3016. I found this one on eBay earlier today.
I could pay cash for it and have money left over for shipping and some tooling.
Not being familiar with these machines, I'm pretty nervous about buying a crappy, worn out VMC.
But I will research that one and shop around more. I'm finding lots of Fadal's out in the wild.
If there are any memory issues, I may be able to use one of these Titan Drip Feed units.

If you buy a Fadal, just buy the DNC unit from CalMotion. It's the best one out there.

 

[kazlx]

FADAL VMC 3016 FOR SALE

1996 Fadal VMC 3016 FOR SALE Located in Clinton Twp Michigan Underpower & well maintained 10K spindle (new within the last 4 years) Box ways Glass Scales USB Reader Calmotion Ridgid Tapping New coolant flowing through 103"x89x101 8,550 lbs Asking $20K or best offer! 586-630-3032...

www.practicalmachinist.com

 

[AmericanMaker]

If you want to make money, not a hobby, Buy a used commercial machine. Don't waste money on a Tormach. I make over $100,000 per year from a Haas MiniMill if that tells you anything.

@Houdini16 that's awesome that you've had such success with the Haas Mini Mill.

The one thing I must take into account is that I still have so much to learn about where and how to find work. That's why I want to start on a part-time basis with Xometry providing me jobs while I build my machining skills as well as the business skills. I'm pretty sure building a client base is going to take a significant amount of time, and I don't want to be laden with debt while learning the ropes.

 

[kazlx]

@Houdini16 that's awesome that you've had such success with the Haas Mini Mill.

The one thing I must take into account is that I still have so much to learn about where and how to find work. That's why I want to start on a part-time basis with Xometry providing me jobs while I build my machining skills as well as the business skills. I'm pretty sure building a client base is going to take a significant amount of time, and I don't want to be laden with debt while learning the ropes.

Don't rely on Xometry. All they do is throw out ridiculous jobs. Find the customers yourself and build a base. Don't make some shitty middle man company rich.

 

[LOTT]

The TM and MiniMill are good suggestions, depending on what you're doing. I bought a TM-1 for $15k, spent two years making parts while cursing the slow rapids, spindle, and tool changes, and lack of enclosure, then sold it for $16.5k. So while it was the wrong machine for my parts I really can't complain about the cost of ownership.

You can pick a TM-1 or MiniMill up with a pallet jack and load it on a tilt bed trailer, so no rigging fees if it's within driving distance.

And you can only crash so hard on a mill with 400 IPM rapids....

The advantage any Haas has over an older BT-30 is the shear volume of instruction available online. Downside is older controls aren't supported, so buyer beware.

 

[mmurray70]

The one thing I must take into account is that I still have so much to learn about where and how to find work. That's why I want to start on a part-time basis with Xometry providing me jobs while I build my machining skills as well as the business skills. I'm pretty sure building a client base is going to take a significant amount of time, and I don't want to be laden with debt while learning the ropes.

Make a few cool parts, take some pics, heck even steal some pics online, get some nice brochures made and a website and go door to door giving out brochures and talking to business owners. Look for small to medium sized companies, new start ups are great too as they don't have suppliers figured out yet. Look for prototype, low qty work will probably be best bet. Few days at that will give you WAY more success then Xometry.

Forget about the Tormach. I suggest a Fadal too. Will be cheaper, more forgiving, and will actually run some parts much better then a brother. You have no idea what type of work your getting into, nice to have the extra rigidity to run long tools, big drills etc if needed.

 

[Overland]

I put a very simple ad on Craigslist and FB for a machine shop.
I got one or 2 good hits. Responded very quickly and delivered the parts within 2 days. About 4 hours manual lathe, simple turning and single point threading (I'm slow).
$250.
Got couple more jobs from same outfit. I'm responsive, try to do good work, and not too expensive.
Talking to another potential customer, I mentioned name of other customer - he was impressed. No work from him yet, but who knows.....
Get some cards made. Photos of your work, maybe even a website that people can find easily.
You don't need Xometry. You're near a big city. Lots of problems getting work done, wonderful opportunity. Listen to what folks are saying - get a good machine !
Be humble; go talk to shops, ask for an opportunity to show them what you can do.
Right now is a wonderful time to start something. You don't have a lot to lose, other than the price of a machine, but if you buy right, you'll get your money back.
Good luck,
Bob

 

[trochoidalpath]

For small scale stuff the Tormach is okay but not great.

Here is why I liked my 1100 Series 3: it fit in the space I had available, it was hard to crash it so hard I broke anything but tools, it had a tool changer, and Tormach support tried their best to take care of me.

Here is what doesn't work (a longer list).

Rigidity is not great. You cannot run a 1/2" EM effectively because the machine doesn't have the rigidity for it. The sweet spot is probably 1/4" tools (at least they're cheap). But the spindle is only 5500 RPM. So you're in a tough spot. The tool interface (TTS) has some good points, like being referenced in Z, but some really really catastrophically bad points, like being incredibly susceptible to pull-out.

It has a tool changer, but it's very slow and remarkably fussy. You'll want to replace all the ATC grip screws with longer ones. I barely used mine because I never trusted it in lights-out operation.

Things will break, all the time. You are on the hook to fix it. You will learn a lot about your machine, because you might have to take it half apart like three times to get the column in tram. QC is ... not great ... so you'll be doing a lot of acceptance tests. The enclosure will leak until you use up an entire tube of silicone gasket caulk on it.

The coolant sump is laughably small and it's trivially easy to overrun it. You will break end mills as a result of coolant starvation.

But... it will fit basically anywhere, and you will eventually get your parts made. Just very slowly. If I worked very carefully I could hold tolerances of ±0.001" over 8" in 1018.


If you can *possibly* fit it, get something else. Haas Mini-Mill or DT/DM series are probably good choices that are going to be relatively available and supported as used models.

I have a Speedio now and there is absolutely no comparison. They are on different planets. Also way more expensive.

 

[triumph406]

Funny you should mention a Fadal 3016. I found this one on eBay earlier today.
I could pay cash for it and have money left over for shipping and some tooling.
Not being familiar with these machines, I'm pretty nervous about buying a crappy, worn out VMC.
But I will research that one and shop around more. I'm finding lots of Fadal's out in the wild.
If there are any memory issues, I may be able to use one of these Titan Drip Feed units.

I use old laptops ($20-100 of CL) to send files to the Fadals. I use ONECNC DNC which is free.

The advantage is that you can edit and save programs to the laptop. You can't edit with a Calmotion.

 

[Mtndew]

while I build my machining skills

I think a Haas would be a good fit for you. Their YouTube channel has a plethora of information on tips and how-to's.

 

[kazlx]

I use old laptops ($20-100 of CL) to send files to the Fadals. I use ONECNC DNC which is free.

The advantage is that you can edit and save programs to the laptop. You can't edit with a Calmotion.

You don't really need to. The best thing I ever bought for my Fadal was the CalMotion. Then you can use any computer and post straight out and run off of any USB stick. The biggest issues with most 'old' machines is getting the archaic 232 bullshit to work reliably and even find computers to use with it. The CalMotion literally solved all of that and you don't have to deal with it. And I have heard of guys interfacing it with some sort of hub to drop files over wifi, but I only had the one machine and didn't care. Plugging in the USB and running off DNC is super easy.

 

[kazlx]

For small scale stuff the Tormach is okay but not great.

I have a Speedio now and there is absolutely no comparison. They are on different planets. Also way more expensive.

100% agree. And while a Robo is most likely the same, I love my Speedio and support being close and readily available was a huge plus for me. However, in hindsight, I wish I would have done it sooner and probably just skipped the Fadal all together.

 

[triumph406]

You don't really need to. The best thing I ever bought for my Fadal was the CalMotion. Then you can use any computer and post straight out and run off of any USB stick. The biggest issues with most 'old' machines is getting the archaic 232 bullshit to work reliably and even find computers to use with it. The CalMotion literally solved all of that and you don't have to deal with it. And I have heard of guys interfacing it with some sort of hub to drop files over wifi, but I only had the one machine and didn't care. Plugging in the USB and running off DNC is super easy.

Firstly the Calmotion interfaces are $399-$699 depending on what you get. Rediculous amount of money imho

The laptop gives you the ability to edit programs without having to go back to the programming computer. Plus you can store programs on the laptop.

I know a lot of people like the Calmotion, personally I can't see one single advantage over a laptop.

Now this somewhat assumes you can make your own cables, I can, a lot of people can't that probably makes a Calmotion solution seem reasonable.

 

[Rob L]

Firstly the Calmotion interfaces are $399-$699 depending on what you get. Rediculous amount of money imho

The laptop gives you the ability to edit programs without having to go back to the programming computer. Plus you can store programs on the laptop.

I use an old Dell laptop that I got for free, presumably because half of the keyboard doesn't work, no matter as I already have a keyboard and mouse I can plug in if I need to edit a program, prior to that I was using an old desktop PC that I got for school work back in 2003, both running NC Link which is free software.

Cables are pretty readily available I've found, I bought the my first one and then made up the second, it did help to have one that I knew was wired correctly to open up and copy from but all of my machine manuals have had wiring diagrams for RS232 cables.

I've looked at things like the Calmotion, there is a mobile DNC thing sold in the UK that looks nice but it always comes back to the question of what can they do that my free old PC and laptop can't do other than make my bank account look less happy.

 

[AmericanMaker]

We had a chat and my wife agrees that we need to bump up the VMC budget. She is super supportive of my new adventure!

While do I trust and respect your opinions and advice, I don't trust myself to make the right choice on a 20+ year old machine, at least not at this moment. I don't have the skills, knowledge, or stomach to drop $28k on a machine that old.

However, I found a compromise between an older Robodrill and a Tormach. I found this 2018 Haas TM-1P.
It appears to be 2 hours from my house, and according to @LOTT I may be able to handle the transport.
I'm going to make offer in the range of my budget and see if they bite.

Based on the current tech specs ...

• It looks like it can be lowered enough to get it into my garage's 82" high opening.
• The controller is still supported by Hass.
• It's a CAT 40 spindle that can be upgraded from 6k to 10k when I'm ready.
• It weighs 4,000+ lbs.
• The feed rates of 400 x 400 x 400 IPM are better than what I've been looking at.
• It's rigid enough and fast enough for what I'll be doing.

I'm calling Haas this morning to confirm all that, and to find out basic support and service costs.

My only concern is the cost of Haas tooling .... Good Lord!!!
I'll search threads here to see where you pros get your tooling.

 

[Comatose]

www.maritool.com Frank is a regular here, super helpful, makes good stuff, actually makes a lot of it.

But yes, tooling hurts. People say to budget as much for tooling as the machine, but that's probably silly. You could start off with ten Er32 holders ($150 each with pull studs) a couple sets of Er32 collets ($250 each) a decent vise ($500) plus a thousand dollars in endmills, drills, taps, etc.

So, let's say budget $4000 for tooling. You'll end up with a lot more eventually, but that would get you started.

You have machines now so I assume you have measuring tools, but if not another couple grand will get you started there.

 

[majohnson]

In some ways buying a machine is the cheaper part of starting a shop. It all the items that you need to make things go. Like radditional measuring equipment, if you plan on working for others you need to be able to verify all the machining is correct and it takes much more than a pair of calipers. Insert tool bars, inserts, and tool holders add up fast. Then threading inserts along with holders. Internal and external are ground differently and also have their own tool bar. In most cases inserts come in 5 or 10 packs. Before you know it you have spent thousands on just inserts and they all fit into a few white plastic storage trays. I was lucky the guys at Western Tool let me buy some inserts in ones and twos, saved me a bunch. Tool bars the cheap ones won’t repeat, the same with inserts. And tool holders, the ground finish on the cheaper ones can be terrible, you can see the the grinding wheel was jumping as it ground. Get a pair of precision ground tool stones and just lightly go around the finish and you can see the high and low spots. Your finish will not turn out, you will spend a bunch chasing your speeds and feeds. Then turn the insert and the difference between cutting points blows your dimensions.

Tormach has as bought back a few machines because not even their techs could get them to cut to specs. If you look around the net you can find them. Something no one mentioned or if they did I missed it, sorry. John is making low six figures off his YouTube channel alone. He is closing in on 500K subscriptions after about 14 years of putting out videos. I applaud all his efforts on YouTube he has done well for himself.

Good luck with your new chapter in life!

 

[LOTT]

We had a chat and my wife agrees that we need to bump up the VMC budget. She is super supportive of my new adventure!

While do I trust and respect your opinions and advice, I don't trust myself to make the right choice on a 20+ year old machine, at least not at this moment. I don't have the skills, knowledge, or stomach to drop $28k on a machine that old.

However, I found a compromise between an older Robodrill and a Tormach. I found this 2018 Haas TM-1P.
It appears to be 2 hours from my house, and according to @LOTT I may be able to handle the transport.
I'm going to make offer in the range of my budget and see if they bite.

Based on the current tech specs ...

• It looks like it can be lowered enough to get it into my garage's 82" high opening.
• The controller is still supported by Hass.
• It's a CAT 40 spindle that can be upgraded from 6k to 10k when I'm ready.
• It weighs 4,000+ lbs.
• The feed rates of 400 x 400 x 400 IPM are better than what I've been looking at.
• It's rigid enough and fast enough for what I'll be doing.

I'm calling Haas this morning to confirm all that, and to find out basic support and service costs.

My only concern is the cost of Haas tooling .... Good Lord!!!
I'll search threads here to see where you pros get your tooling.

To caveat- that was a 2006 machine with the half enclosure, but they look to be about the same size now. We're also on the redneck side as far as willingness to haul stuff.

Did you ever tell us the size and materials of your parts? That TM-1 could be a good fit, or not. For instance, we'll modify parts sometimes that get faced, drilled, countersunk, and tapped. Throw two at a time in soft jaws and you have a 30 second cycle time in a Brother. The tool changes alone would take a minute on the TM.

You can modify your strategy by filling up the table, but now you're making 8 sets of soft jaws, more work offset dialing in, etc. For a short runs it's not worth it.

Larger parts change the formula, if the program runs for an hour eho cares about tool changes.

 

[AmericanMaker]

Did you ever tell us the size and materials of your parts? ...

@LOTT, I can't answer that question yet. I'm just getting started, so I'll be taking whatever jobs I can get within my capabilities, starting with Xometry work and whatever work I can find on my own.

Thankfully I have a full-time software engineering job to support my family and the new side gig. That will enable me to make some compromises and work a little harder and longer to build my skills and business.

I'd love to get a machine like a Brother and maybe one day I'll be able to. But for now I think the capabilities of the Haas will be great for me.

I'm am going to try and hire a local Haas Factory outlet, or another independent company to do a machine inspection before I do anything else.