anchors in block and brick walls?

[richard newman]

I'm wondering what kind of anchors or shields are best to use in cinder block and brick walls? Moving into a new shop & want to hang cantilevered racks as in the photo. I've always been in old mill buildings with huge wooden beams, just used a couple of 1/2" lag bolts at the top of the 4x4's. New building has steel roof trusses which can't bear much weight, so I need to lag into the walls. Will probably extend the 4x4's them down to the floor to support the weight, just need to be sure the bolts won't pull out and allow the rack to topple. Probably a lot less than 500 lbs per 4x4.

Is it best to drill into morter joints or into the blocks or bricks themselves?

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

Newer building or older? The anchor will only be as strong as the mortar, and on an older building that might not be very strong. I would design the shelves to be freestanding, just use anchors as a backup to make sure they won't fall, scratch the cantilever design.

 

[boslab]

Hard to beat chemical anchors, I use hilti , careful selection, stronger than expanding , best job is a bolt right through the wall with big spreading washers, I don’t trust expanding much, seen too many fail.
Mark

 

[sfriedberg]

Beside the mortar issue, a lot of cinder blocks just are not very strong in anything but vertical compression. You might take a page from old brick buildings, where you can often see cast iron or steel backing squares or fancy rosettes on the outside of the building. 6" across would be a small one, and I suspect they went up to 10" or 12" across. The building tie rods or mounting bolts go all the way through the brick wall and the external backer and are bolted on the outside. (Just noticed that this is what boslab is referring to.)
And I would be very, very conservative about any asymmetric loads or lateral loads I put on a cinder block wall. I would put more confidence in a stout wood framed wall than a brick or block wall in those situations!

 

[Bondo]

If you going to run the 4x4 down to the ground, which is the best idea, you just need a simple through bolt.

Free standing is the best way in case anything happens the rack load isn't connected to the structural building.

 

[DDoug]

I'm wondering what kind of anchors or shields are best to use in cinder block and brick walls? Moving into a new shop & want to hang cantilevered racks as in the photo. I've always been in old mill buildings with huge wooden beams, just used a couple of 1/2" lag bolts at the top of the 4x4's. New building has steel roof trusses which can't bear much weight, so I need to lag into the walls. Will probably extend the 4x4's them down to the floor to support the weight, just need to be sure the bolts won't pull out and allow the rack to topple. Probably a lot less than 500 lbs per 4x4.

Is it best to drill into morter joints or into the blocks or bricks themselves?

You'll doo exactly what your landlord says to do.

 

[mike44]

I'm wondering what kind of anchors or shields are best to use in cinder block and brick walls? Moving into a new shop & want to hang cantilevered racks as in the photo. I've always been in old mill buildings with huge wooden beams, just used a couple of 1/2" lag bolts at the top of the 4x4's. New building has steel roof trusses which can't bear much weight, so I need to lag into the walls. Will probably extend the 4x4's them down to the floor to support the weight, just need to be sure the bolts won't pull out and allow the rack to topple. Probably a lot less than 500 lbs per 4x4.

Is it best to drill into morter joints or into the blocks or bricks themselves?

Drill in the solid part of the block. Nail or screw Simpson angle plates to the vertical members. Use a roto hammer with a 3/16" diameter masonry bit and drill about 4" deep. Cut a piece of tie wire 4" long. This the wire used to tie rebar.
Place wire in hole and then hammer 16d galvanized nail into the hole alongside of the wire.
This method is cheaper , faster and better than Tapcons. The angle brackets will never pull out or loosen up.
mike

 

[kb0thn]

Lots of anchors for a CMU wall. Because a decent percentage of them won't work. I would definitely put them into the block itself, the mortar cracks and crumbles away on its own. No need to provoke it.

 

[plastikdreams]

You'll doo exactly what your landlord says to do.

And if he's the landlord?

 

[DDoug]

And if he's the landlord?

IIRC in the last thread on this "Journey" he said "Rented".

I would simply make a stock rack freestanding, don't apply any loads to the walls.
Several companies make these.

 

[Limy Sami]

Free standing, cinder and light concrete blocks are piss poor at load holding - if you need fixings - chemical anchors are the way to go, I've always got on well with Fischer https://www.fischer.co.uk/en-gb who do (or used to) a bag'' that fills with chemical for hollow blocks.

 

[boslab]

Have used the polyester 2 pack chemical anchors with net bag inserts in crumbly block, they work, best to keep the fixing in shear, any tensile and it’s worry time,
Mark

 

[richard newman]

Thanks for the replies. This is indeed a rented space, the block walls are at least 60 yrs old, brick probably older, seems to be in good condition. The landlord, who has many older buildings and lots of experience, suggested bringing the 4x4's down to the floor to support the weight, and then bolting into the walls to keep them from toppling. Thru bolting is out.

The sketch shows some simple calculations for a 500 lb load centered 15" from the wall. With one bolt at 10' height I get a force of 62.5 lbs. As I write this, realized the pivot should be 3.5" from the wall, so force is actually 48 lbs.

I get that anchors would be iffy, and that freestanding steel stuff would be better, but steel racking is pricey, and I already have the 4x4's bored and ready to go. I don't intend to store large quantities of stuff, just have many small bundles of exotic or really special, cool looking wood that I've accumulated over my long career. Big bundles will get stacked on the floor.

So, if I used 3 bolts & anchors per upright, would I have an acceptable margin of safety?

 

[Rob F.]

Best is to do as boslab was saying, epoxy anchor with a screen tube (or net bag). Drill hole in mortar joint, this is best to keep landlords happy as it does not destroy a brick and can disapear with a little grout when you move out. The screen tube holds the epoxy in shape but also lets it ooze out through the screen holes so it grabs the surrounding bricks or blocks. With cinderblock they will work in the empty void, the screen holds a blob of epoxy inside the void. Hilti HY-20 used to be for this maybe they have a newer one now as it has been 10 yrs or so...
Edit: looks like the hy-20 has been replaced with hy-70:

Hilti HIT-HY 20 Hybrid Adhesive

www.ohioservicesupply.com

 

[EPAIII]

I don't trust anything in concrete block that holds along the sides of a drilled hole. A toggle nut that goes THROUGH the hole and flips open on the inside of the block is much better. I don't know about the "chemical" fasteners that some are talking about: I have never used them. Or even seen them.

Toggle Bolts - Cinder Block - Anchors - Fasteners - The Home Depot

Get free shipping on qualified Toggle Bolts, Cinder Block Anchors products or Buy Online Pick Up in Store today in the Hardware Department.

www.homedepot.com

The only problem with the toggle nuts is they drop down, inside the wall if the screw is removed so you need a new nut each time.

I never found anything I really liked in brick. I go along with free standing or legs to the floor and fasten to the wall ONLY to prevent it from falling over.

 

[Rob F.]

I don't trust anything in concrete block that holds along the sides of a drilled hole. ...I don't know about the "chemical" fasteners that some are talking about: I have never used them. Or even seen them.
I never found anything I really liked in brick.

The epoxy with screen tube or net bag does more than just hold to sides of the hole, the screen tube is the key here. Say the thickness of the cinder block is 1", the screen tubes (imagine a cigar sized single wrap of window screen, closed at one end & a flange on the other) anyway the screen tube is something like 3" long and it sticks through the block and into the void. You pump the epoxy into the screen tube and it goes all the way in, 3" and starts to come out inside the hollow area and there it makes a blob on the back side of the wall. It is also coming out inside the hole adhering to the bore of the hole also. The epoxy is pretty thick so it will not drip inside the wall. Once the screen tube is full of epoxy then you install your anchor which will displace some more epoxy out the screen, into the void. This generally will be stronger than the wall structure.

 

[Gordon Heaton]

Are the blocks hollow? My shop is of cinder-block construction but it is 100% grouted with concrete with lots of rebar. If yours are grouted you'll have no problems. Often, commercial block buildings will have one or more bond-beams which can also serve as good anchor points.

 

[Rob F.]

This is a necro thread from Jan, 2023

 

[Ries]

I have completely worn out two big milwaukee rotohammers- so in my life, I have drilled a LOT of holes in concrete, brick, and hollow block. thousands and thousands.
If you run the 4x4 all the way to the ground, I would just put em where you want, and drill, and see what you hit.
I use "chemical" (epoxy grout) a lot- usually hilti, but it requires a two tube caulking gun that goes for 125 bucks. But I only use the epoxy in solid walls. If you hit a hollow block, use a toggle. Simple, mechanical, you can tell when you install it if its biting. I have used a lot of both the steel wing toggles, and the newer plastic ones- depends on what I have in the side I need. The toggler brand is available up to 1/2" bolt size, with a stainless toggle, I have hung railing sections that weigh 500lbs each with those, and 20 years later, in a train station, they are still fine.
You need a variety of fasteners- because once you drill the hole, you will find some wont work. And some always fail anyway. Sometimes you pound em into the wall cavity and use a new one.
Its an art, not a science.

 

[richard newman]

This is a necro thread from Jan, 2023

Maybe, but I'm alive and still hanging stuff on the walls!

The blocks are hollow and not grouted as far as I can tell. I've been running the 4x4's to the floor, and using 1/2" lag shields and sleeve anchors, trying to get them into the solid stretchers of the blocks. Floor takes the weight, and the anchors at the top just have to keep it from toppling, not much force on them. I use 4 anchors, torque them up to spec.

Just bought a sensitive stud finder to locate the stretchers in the blocks, so I don't have to drill a bunch of small exploratory holes. Seems to actually work, haven't verified it's accuracy yet.

The brick wall separates an older building from a new addition and is interior, so I was able to drill all the way thru, 14"!, and use all thread. That sucker isn't pulling out! Sure am glad I bought a Bosch Bulldog rotary hammer, it just sails right thru!

The 44' square space has 2 block walls, 1 brick wall with firred drywall, and a metal stud wall, interior wood stud walls, and a concrete floor. Getting an education in fasteners!