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Another Drawing Discrepancy thread....

I dont have an answer for you, but in the past I have eaten the cost to keep the customer happy. However, my patience is wearing thinner these days. One customer with facilities here and abroad, supplying tools to the major oil companies has bit me a time or two. How a company that size can let this stuff get through, I dont know.

After 6yrs of doing business with them, I recently got my first NCR. I didnt engrave them. They said I should have. Long story short, I had made these parts several times before. But this RFQ and PO was a different Revision. Previous revision called out engraving requirements, and location. This Rev did not. I made the parts to the print sent ( not the one on file ) as per my manual ( and standard practice )

They said I should have engraved them anyway. I told them if its not on the drawing, I dont do it ( unless they say on they have instructions on PO etc )

They said I should have anyway again! I said I cant just do what I want, I am required to make the parts to print! I cant just engrave what I want, where I want! What if I do it on a critical surface? Which surface is acceptable? By then I was pissed and told them my recommendation is to scrap them and I will send a revised Invoice!

Never heard back.
 
I dont have an answer for you, but in the past I have eaten the cost to keep the customer happy. However, my patience is wearing thinner these days.
In my situation, this particular problem, so far I'm out $200 for material, not a shocking ammount, but... I'm really not keen on re-ordering $200 worth of more material, so I can then spend a day+ in the shop making the parts that when I get paid will cover the cost of the material x2. I haven't heard anything back yet either. The part that irks me is they don't seem to want to admit fault. I also get that the intermediate people don't want to rock the boat with their customer. So throw the little guy under the bus...
This is not a one time issue. I have in the past spent extra hours, sometimes
many 'free' hours with this customer 'getting the job done', whatever it takes. So I'm not feeling even a little like just sucking it up with this problem.
 
Looks like most people are putting the responsibility on the customer. I guess I have the dissenting option then.

If they provided you a PO with a print attached, it is your responsibility to provide parts according to that print, not an older print.

Every shortcut you take, such as relying on the customer's internal rev control is at your own risk.

Yes, it's asshole amateur behavior if they made changes without updating the revision, but you cannot operate on the assumption that other people are always going to follow best practices.
 
The drafter was under your control so that was 100% on you and you took responsibility, as you should! The problem arises when the customer doesn't take responsibility in like fashion.


Maybe just a bit of hyperbole here? It's unreasonable to believe you can fix everyone elses mistakes. It's tough enough to get stuff done when I cover all my bases, let alone everyone elses. Again, do any of your customers accept any % responsibility to fix non-conforming parts? Mine never have. A customer or vendor that consistently provides bad info and expects no repercussions is not a good customer. I let 'em go.
The drafter was working with me, but he had a separate management chain from me and had independent initials on the drawing just as much as Manufacturing and Quality.

No, not hyperbole. I don’t think I can fix everyone’s mistakes. I do think there is a reasonable level of care that should be applied to catch the low hanging fruit, and I have a strong sense or personal responsibility, ironically given where I live. It sounds like the ways you and I have been bit result in a difference in what each of us think that reasonable level is.

Maybe I’m using the wrong terminology, but this is somewhat akin to a pedestrian getting hit while in a crosswalk. The law might put 100% fault on the driver, but my dad would have ripped into me for not looking both ways before I crossed the street and I’d still have been hit by a car.
 
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This is not a one time issue. I have in the past spent extra hours, sometimes many 'free' hours with this customer 'getting the job done', whatever it takes. So I'm not feeling even a little like just sucking it up with this problem.
I hope there’s already a risk surcharge on quotes to this customer.
 
Looks like most people are putting the responsibility on the customer. I guess I have the dissenting option then.

If they provided you a PO with a print attached, it is your responsibility to provide parts according to that print, not an older print.

Every shortcut you take, such as relying on the customer's internal rev control is at your own risk.

Yes, it's asshole amateur behavior if they made changes without updating the revision, but you cannot operate on the assumption that other people are always going to follow best practices.
I have zero issues if you are OK with playing 'where's Waldo' with every drawing you get from a customer. I have better things to do. And I expect to at least hear about any changes even if Standard Engineering Practice means nothing to the person that made the changes. This is business. It's not a guessing game or puzzle.
After all....the customer relies on ME to do my 'best practice'.
 
Maybe I’m using the wrong terminology, but this is somewhat akin to a pedestrian getting hit while in a crosswalk. The law might put 100% fault on the driver, but my dad would have ripped into me for not looking both ways before I crossed the street and I’d still have been hit by a car.
I understand what you are trying to say, but this is a specious analogy.

This scenario is more to the point. The driver says "I'll pay you to carry this parcel across the street for me." You do your universally accepted due diligence and look both ways when you cross. The driver does not excersise his universally accepted responsibility to obey a stop light and hits you. You and his parcel are damaged. Now what % at fault are you for not stepping on his brake for him, and must you repair his parcel? Or, is the driver 100% responsible to cover all damages. I think the latter.

I've certainly had customers whose drawing control couldn't be trusted. And usually this was indicative of deeper troubles. I choose to work for these customers no longer, and I do not miss them.

The drafter was working with me, but he had a separate management chain from me and had independent initials on the drawing just as much as Manufacturing and Quality.
So if I understand you correctly, you and the drafter worked for the same company. You were both on the same team and you were being a team player. Good on you and quite right of you to head off a potential problem for your employer! But this is quite different from checking every dimension on every customer's drawing that comes down the pike!
 
I understand what you are trying to say, but this is a specious analogy.

This scenario is more to the point. The driver says "I'll pay you to carry this parcel across the street for me." You do your universally accepted due diligence and look both ways when you cross. The driver does not excersise his universally accepted responsibility to obey a stop light and hits you. You and his parcel are damaged. Now what % at fault are you for not stepping on his brake for him, and must you repair his parcel? Or, is the driver 100% responsible to cover all damages. I think the latter.

I've certainly had customers whose drawing control couldn't be trusted. And usually this was indicative of deeper troubles. I choose to work for these customers no longer, and I do not miss them.


So if I understand you correctly, you and the drafter worked for the same company. You were both on the same team and you were being a team player. Good on you and quite right of you to head off a potential problem for your employer! But this is quite different from checking every dimension on every customer's drawing that comes down the pike!
I never said the OP should check every dimension on customer drawings, though I have worked with people who do that. I said to check the size of the incoming stock (envelope dimensions), which is simple and catches a surprising number of undeclared changes.
 
I have zero issues if you are OK with playing 'where's Waldo' with every drawing you get from a customer. I have better things to do. And I expect to at least hear about any changes even if Standard Engineering Practice means nothing to the person that made the changes. This is business. It's not a guessing game or puzzle.
After all....the customer relies on ME to do my 'best practice'.
And where did it lead you? Your customer ghosted you for two weeks. Good luck getting payment from them on the wrong material, because it doesn't look like they plan on paying.

It takes me 15 seconds to open the old and the new PDFs and then I switch between them rapidly on the same screen. Using this method you can tell if the documents are identical down to the same pixels. Doesn't matter if there's 2 dimensions or 200, takes about the same time to check.

Or another method is to open both solid models and to compare the model volumes and save dates.

So you can complain on here how others aren't following best practices, or you can cover your own ass. I've never had to call someone to tell them I've ordered the wrong material or that I've made the wrong parts, plus I've never had to plays where's Waldo because it takes me less than a minute to check if there have been any changes.
 
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And where did it lead you? Your customer ghosted you for two weeks. Good luck getting payment from them on the wrong material, because it doesn't look like they plan on paying.

It takes me 15 seconds to open the old and the new PDFs and then I switch between them rapidly on the same screen. Using this method you can tell if the documents are identical down to the same pixels. Doesn't matter if there's 2 dimensions or 200, takes about the same time to check.

Or another method is to open both solid models and to compare the model volumes and save dates.

So you can complain on here how others aren't following best practices, or you can cover your own ass. I've never had to call someone to tell them I've ordered the wrong material or that I've made the wrong parts, plus I've never had to plays where's Waldo because it takes me less than a minute to check if there have been any changes.
I have 5 other jobs I'm curently working on for this same customer, we speak every couple days. You're clueless to the situation. Paper and pdf no 'solid models'. The rest of your drivel......also clueless. There has to be that one guy.
 
Engineer here. If you got a PO calling out a specific Rev and you have a drawing with that Rev letter showing a 6.5 OD then it is not your fault. Totally on the engineer for creating parallel revisions of the drawing which is undeniably bad practice because it causes exactly this to happen.

In my opinion the only reasonable time to make a drawing change without a Rev change is when correcting an error on the drawing such as adding a missing note or dimension or fixing some other type of drafting error. If I ever did this I explicitly told the vendor what I fixed, that this is a new copy with the same Rev letter, and to delete / destroy the previously sent copy.

If the customer doesn't want to eat the cost of their mistake due to reluctance to follow an industry standard then you should start adding a charge for document review to every PO they send you.
 
Engineer here. If you got a PO calling out a specific Rev and you have a drawing with that Rev letter showing a 6.5 OD then it is not your fault. Totally on the engineer for creating parallel revisions of the drawing which is undeniably bad practice because it causes exactly this to happen.

In my opinion the only reasonable time to make a drawing change without a Rev change is when correcting an error on the drawing such as adding a missing note or dimension or fixing some other type of drafting error. If I ever did this I explicitly told the vendor what I fixed, that this is a new copy with the same Rev letter, and to delete / destroy the previously sent copy.
I'll argue that adding a note constitutes a functional change and should mandate a revision. Revisions are cheap in a well set up drafting system (and if not, there's a separate internal process issue).
For my engineers I'll occasionally allow a spelling typo to be corrected, fix a line cross, etc. Even then if it's not urgent simply fix it in the next release unless it's a highly stable drawing.

If the customer doesn't want to eat the cost of their mistake due to reluctance to follow an industry standard then you should start adding a charge for document review to every PO they send you.
Painful as it was I worked one place where the drafter consistently made the 2d correct and 3d incorrect. After the second time this happened we simply told the shop to start putting a cost to re-model our parts from the drawing into their quote. The tricky part was explaining this to Purchasing who wanted to know why we should use the shop that was now quoting higher instead of others.
 








 
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