Another mastercam vs hypermill discussion... Emphasis on Volumill.

[BRIAN.T]

I know this gets brought up every now and again, I've read all the recent posts. I'd like to discuss again before we pull the trigger. Perhaps someone has some new insight.

I just joined a high end aerospace company as their 5 axis guy. We are looking to upgrade our cam system.

I use Mastercam, they use Gibbs. We are looking at either Mastercam or Hypermill.

Most of our parts are prismatic in nature, less organic or mold type features. But I suspect that will change now that I'm on board.

Everything about hypermill seems great to me. With one BIG exception. They use volumill, which in my experience with Gibbs is an absolute dumpster fire compared to Optirough, or iMachining.

Now Gibbs isn't exactly on top of their game, so it's possible their implementation of volumills processing isn't as good as it could be. I have given hypermill a few test cuts to compare to mastercam and Gibbs. The Gibbs toolpath is almost identical. The mastercam toolpath destroys both.

So with all that in mind, do you find that the advantages of hypermill outweigh the dated roughing algorithms found in volumill?

Finally tell my anything else I don't know about hypermill vs mastercam that we should consider before making the purchase.

Thanks

 

[goooose]

I wouldn't suggest learning a new software and trying to impressing your new employer at the same time. You won't be able to do both. You know what Mastercam can do, why risk your reputation on software you don't know.

 

[BRIAN.T]

While I agree with you in principle, I've known my new employer for many years. We are good.

He knows it'll be months before we get anywhere. However, I do agree that I COULD be making cool shit Monday if we go mastercam.

 

[empower]

I know this gets brought up every now and again, I've read all the recent posts. I'd like to discuss again before we pull the trigger. Perhaps someone has some new insight.

I just joined a high end aerospace company as their 5 axis guy. We are looking to upgrade our cam system.

I use Mastercam, they use Gibbs. We are looking at either Mastercam or Hypermill.

Most of our parts are prismatic in nature, less organic or mold type features. But I suspect that will change now that I'm on board.

Everything about hypermill seems great to me. With one BIG exception. They use volumill, which in my experience with Gibbs is an absolute dumpster fire compared to Optirough, or iMachining.

Now Gibbs isn't exactly on top of their game, so it's possible their implementation of volumills processing isn't as good as it could be. I have given hypermill a few test cuts to compare to mastercam and Gibbs. The Gibbs toolpath is almost identical. The mastercam toolpath destroys both.

So with all that in mind, do you find that the advantages of hypermill outweigh the dated roughing algorithms found in volumill?

Finally tell my anything else I don't know about hypermill vs mastercam that we should consider before making the purchase.

Thanks

where in LA?
i would recommend NX. i've got pretty decent experience with masterCANT and hypermill. not a fan of either by far. started using NX recently and it blows everything else out of the water. and i wouldnt say the learning curve was as bad as some have made it seem before.
volumill as you said - sucks donkey balls. mastercam stability on its own is absolute trash, i wont talk about their shit UI. if you guys are looking to switch up, NX is the way to go IMO.

 

[BRIAN.T]

where in LA?
i would recommend NX. i've got pretty decent experience with masterCANT and hypermill. not a fan of either by far. started using NX recently and it blows everything else out of the water. and i wouldnt say the learning curve was as bad as some have made it seem before.
volumill as you said - sucks donkey balls. mastercam stability on its own is absolute trash, i wont talk about their shit UI. if you guys are looking to switch up, NX is the way to go IMO.

Thanks. We're in Chatsworth area.

I've definitely heard a lot of good things about NX. But isn't it primarily useful for Siemens controls? We are a Heidenhain shop.... At least in the 5 axis department. I'm sure it doesn't actually matter, but that's my understanding anyway.

 

[empower]

I believe, Hypermill (like all) has a big learning curve.
@mkd could possibly advise as I know he has had experience with both....

it wasnt THAT bad... in fact, the work flow between MC and HM is very similar. you've got layers just like in mastercam, planes (hypermill calls them frames) sketching and modeling is equally as shitty on both.
where HM shines compared to MC is collision avoidance. you define the model you're working with at the start, and it uses that model throughout the program, and it always knows what to avoid, no matter what (caveat: you CAN disable it deliberately, but by default it always looks for collision).
mastercam code filtering is EONS better than hypermill, hm gives you practically no options to control how your points are spread throughout the toolpath. we had MAJOR issues with that in surfacing.

 

[BRIAN.T]

...and hypermill. not a fan of either by far.

Also what do you dislike about hypermill? I already know what I dislike about mastercam. I think it's a very good all around cam package, but it certainly has it's issues.

Edit: I see you answered this question before I even asked. Thanks

 

[empower]

Thanks. We're in Chatsworth area.

I've definitely heard a lot of good things about NX. But isn't it primarily useful for Siemens controls? We are a Heidenhain shop.... At least in the 5 axis department. I'm sure it doesn't actually matter, but that's my understanding anyway.

thats not true at all! they have PLENTY HH posts, i can go into the post hub right now and find default posts/sim for hermle, GF mikron, DMG. either siemens or HH controls. the software is control agnostic, all about how your post processor is set up.

 

[empower]

Also what do you dislike about hypermill? I already know what I dislike about mastercam. I think it's a very good all around cam package, but it certainly has it's issues.

the same thing i dislike about mastercam. sketching is not dimension driven. having to translate and resize features instead of editing sketch dimensions is retarded IMO. as well as not having feature trees in sketching/modeling.
with 5 axis stuff especially, i personally create a LOT of geometry, fixtures, containment geo, 5 axis control curves etc. doing things like that in a TRUE cad environment is a million times better than the antiquated approach every other cad uses (except NX and fusion, to my knowledge)

 

[BRIAN.T]

the same thing i dislike about mastercam. sketching is not dimension driven. having to translate and resize features instead of editing sketch dimensions is retarded IMO. as well as not having feature trees in sketching/modeling.
with 5 axis stuff especially, i personally create a LOT of geometry, fixtures, containment geo, 5 axis control curves etc. doing things like that in a TRUE cad environment is a million times better than the antiquated approach every other cad uses (except NX and fusion, to my knowledge)

That makes sense, we are considering getting SOLIDWORKS as well, although having to go back and forth would be less ideal, but it's not THAT often I have that much trouble drawing in cam. Maybe 10 percent of the time it sucks...

 

[empower]

with that said, NX fixes all the issues i have with both hypermill and mastercam. its roughing strategies are just as good as optirough or better, its stable as fuck, true native CAD environment. and as i mentioned before, the learning curve at least for me, wasnt nearly as bad. i got 8 hours of 1on1 training with an apps guy over zoom and i was off and running, most of the training was just learning what buttons are where. once you understand how templates work and take the time to set them up - getting new programs going is a walk in the park.

 

[empower]

That makes sense, we are considering getting SOLIDWORKS as well, although having to go back and forth would be less ideal, but it's not THAT often I have that much trouble drawing in cam. Maybe 10 percent of the time it sucks...

i would NEVER do that. importing and exporting models every time you make a change is insanity imo. in NX you just click a button to take you from CAM environment to CAD, and back. whatever changes you make are automatically reflected in CAM with a regen of the toolpath (unless you completely delete the geometry you used of course)
add up the cost of SW seat to either MC or HM 5 axis, and compare to NX, that alone might be very enlightening.

 

[empower]

quote for NX i got last year
Hi Eugene,

The NX CAM 5-Axis Machining license has two purchasing options:

• Subscription: $15,660 yearly (includes maintenance)
• Perpetual: $37,283 with annual maintenance at $7,457. I'd discount the purchase 15% ($5,592.45) bringing the total cost to: $39,147.55

Here's our post specifications form. We use this to capture the post/sim kit requirements and build a quote.

Hank on copy is our post developer. He'll respond with a quote as soon as the form is completed.

A typical 5-Axis post can run from $6-8K, and on-machine probing adds a few $$. I'd assume roughly $10K until you hear back from Hank.

With that Micron on the way, we'll want to get the post sorted out as soon as possible. There are posts the come out of the box with NX that could be used in a pinch. But normally we want to have a post ready when the machine lands and is ready for testing.

Best,

the mastercam and hypermill quotes i've gotten were right along this price, give or take 2-3k, but as we all know, thats without a TRUE CAD system. add in solidworks on top, now either one costs more than NX, with a shittier CAD system, and not native.

 

[Larry Dickman]

Mastercam pretty well sucks, hands down. It's only advantage is that any idiot can download a crack and learn it on their kitchen table.
Hypermill is far beyond. I liked Optirough a lot better than Volumill. Keep in mind that MC bought Opti, they had nothing to do with it, which is why it works.
When I first used Volumill, I was disappointed. I thought it was a real pile of shit. They made some upgrades and now I think it works pretty good. Hypermill has a new roughing module but I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but it's supposed to blow volumill away.

 

[BRIAN.T]

i would NEVER do that. importing and exporting models every time you make a change is insanity imo. in NX you just click a button to take you from CAM environment to CAD, and back. whatever changes you make are automatically reflected in CAM with a regen of the toolpath (unless you completely delete the geometry you used of course)
add up the cost of SW seat to either MC or HM 5 axis, and compare to NX, that alone might be very enlightening.

True.
That's a good point.

 

[BRIAN.T]

So....are you looking to upgrade EVERYTHING?
'Cus you're new there, and talking CAM for 5ax, which would be different to the rest of the (Gibbs) shop (?), and you're now talking installing Solidworks too....?

What's the other 'grammers there like - up for a challenge? Do they like change? If they are, why wait until you arrive to update the place?
Or are they just telling you yeh yeh yeh we're interested, while they actually don't want it?
Because splitting the dept to 5ax only, where you have a total different set of tools, potentially sets you up for a whole lot of finger pointing, from the rest of them.

Do you need solidworks - how many models do you create, or is it not many because you receive them from customers - in which case Mastercams (Well, NX's in reality...) push-pull is more than adequate for any modifications and it isn't "that bad" for creation?

Remembering of course, you need holiday and sick cover - so when Brian is away, "someone" will be able to open your files and drive the software because when you're away, there WILL be problems....

I'm not dampening - just pointing out some thinking points....

These are fair questions. This particular shop is unlike any other. They are one of the best shops in LA at what they do. The results anyway, but all the programmers are of an older generation, not quite as computer savvy as I am. They have been looking for an excuse to upgrade for years.

I think the reality is finding good programmers is very difficult as it is, and finding good programmers who know antiquated software like Gibbs is even more difficult. Getting a modern cam system in there would not only allow for better programs, but may help the future of the company. Even if the down side is that the old programs are no longer compatible with the new. But we never do repeat work anyway, so that doesn't matter that much.

 

[BRIAN.T]

Mastercam pretty well sucks, hands down. It's only advantage is that any idiot can download a crack and learn it on their kitchen table.
Hypermill is far beyond. I liked Optirough a lot better than Volumill. Keep in mind that MC bought Opti, they had nothing to do with it, which is why it works.
When I first used Volumill, I was disappointed. I thought it was a real pile of shit. They made some upgrades and now I think it works pretty good. Hypermill has a new roughing module but I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but it's supposed to blow volumill away.

I did play around with hypermills new roughing, it's actually pretty slick, but it needs work. As it currently exists it gets a lot of material off, but you need to follow up with a better 3d roughing path like volumill to get closer to net shape.

That being said, I get the impression they are working towards getting rid of volumill entirely. Who knows how long though.

Also who did mastercam but Optirough from? I didn't know that. Is it MW?

 

[Larry Dickman]

Also who did mastercam but Optirough from? I didn't know that. Is it MW?

that was my understanding

 

[boosted]

As a relatively long-time hyperMILL user, my #1 complaint for years was the quality of roughing. Not only does volumill kinda suck, but the hyperMILL implementation was even worse than some of the lower end CAM (like MCAM).

They have invested heavily in their proprietary roughing strategy, and it has become exponentially better than it was. I don't think it's the best on the market, but it's no longer an obvious limitation. I start just about every program with 3D adaptive roughing, and have probably only used volumill a couple of times in the last year.

I think one of the selling points for hyperMILL would be the ease of transition from MCAM. The programming workflow is pretty similar, and I think in hyperMILL just a bit more intuitive. I actually preferred the programming workflow in Esprit (by a lot), but training MCAM programmers on Esprit was always a painful ordeal.

We do 99% of our CAD work in Solidworks and just import it into hyperMILL. It's not a big deal. With templates setup, importing an assembly for multiple operations and assigning layers takes about 60 seconds. Modifying the assembly in Solidworks and re-importing part of it is only a few clicks.

 

[boosted]

quote for NX i got last year

...

the mastercam and hypermill quotes i've gotten were right along this price, give or take 2-3k, but as we all know, thats without a TRUE CAD system. add in solidworks on top, now either one costs more than NX, with a shittier CAD system, and not native.

Can you share licenses for individual toolpaths like you do in hyperMILL?

My first seat of HM was about the same price as your NX quote, but the rest have been trimmed down quite a bit. We only have two seats for most of the 5X paths, even though we have 4 seats of HM. Sharing is relatively painless since any seat can pull the 5X license as needed.

On paper NX definitely checks a lot of boxes. I am absolutely dying to ditch SolidWorks as our CAD system. However, when you have half a dozen programmers, it's pretty nice to have them do CAD on a $3.5k seat of SW instead of a $40k seat of CAM. We have expensive tastes over here, and it's not easy to satisfy on a budget.