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Another question for Spearchucker!

OK, I just looked at the Yavapai College course, just for shits and giggles. According to what I'm reading its 40 hours for the gunsmithing certificate, 31 hours for their advanced gunsmithing course and 53 hours for the Associate of Applied Science - Gunsmithing for a total of 124 hours? A week and a half? That can't be right, is it?
 
OK, I just looked at the Yavapai College course, just for shits and giggles. According to what I'm reading its 40 hours for the gunsmithing certificate, 31 hours for their advanced gunsmithing course and 53 hours for the Associate of Applied Science - Gunsmithing for a total of 124 hours? A week and a half? That can't be right, is it?

In today's world? Why not? Microwave ready gunsmiths. Just add water. Why should this be any different than any other portion of the trades? 25 years or so ago I spent 6 full months will nothing but a file, sizing and squaring a block of cold rolled. A year later I knew everything. These days I'm lucky if I know my ass from my head, and don't always get that right either.

EDIT - F'me... I just thought about that and realized it was more like 30 something years ago... fsck...
 
OK, my mistake. You have to take the 124 hours of gunsmith training PLUS 6 hours a day of math, history, phys-ed, home economics, childcare, English, social studies, modern dance and a few subjects that I didn't recognize to get the official Yavapai College degree in gunsmithing. OR, you can scrap the gunsmithing idea and take the same, with the 48 hour law enforcement course and be a cop. OR, 35 hours and you could be a welder. Oddly enough they have no courses for doctors, electricians or dentists. That's odd.
 
Well I guess some good has to come out of it if the state approves it and lets them operate. I still get a couple guys a year coming in or calling looking for work with an ICS firearms repair or GunPro ticket. To date none have ever run a lathe, mill, TIG or anything more than a grinder. I suppose it would be a cheap and handy course for people in the sales industry.

ADD NOTE:
The machines and tools are the one part of the industry that an actually be taught in a classroom workshop scenario. The actual gun work pretty much has to be picked up under apprenticship or self taught and what you will work on is largely dependent on the area you live in. The last time I looked there were over 30,000 different firearms in the RCMPs FRT database. No one can encompass all of that.
 
Quick Karl,
I haven't visited the forum for a very long time and decided to browse and catch up. When I saw the reference to a former Yavapai student, I swear I know the guy because his work record sounds very familiar! I attended their GS program starting back in 1990. I was a bit mystified when I sat down for the very first class and they started reviewing rifle operation at a level I would have used for a child. I started looking around waiting for someone to jump up and go "JUST KIDDING". There were only 2 other guys in the class younger than me, but a significant portion of the class was listening to the instructor with rapt fascination as he described single shot, bolt action, semi-automatic, lever and pump action rifles. I will definitely say that I learned many things, primarily, the most basic use of machine tools and welding (TIG and Plasma Arc later made me a living). Begrudgingly, I also learned how to work with $@#?! wood, which I still swear I despise, but manage fairly well with (I will never checker anything ever again!). I feel any classroom based program is a platform to either struggle to, or to use to climb to the next level. I managed to permanently antagonize the lead instructor, Glenn Simpson, after he questioned my use of some tools to rework an Argentinian HAFDASA, during the "rifle" section of the course. He said that I was not allowed to work above my level until all of my projects were completed for the rifle section. I then proceeded to throw my book with the checklist on the table, with everything checked off. Later, I talked him out of an Interarms Mark X that he was unsuccesfully trying to make function with a .45ACP barrel on it. I went to work on it and the next day I had it feeding and shooting, much to his irritation. To any fellow Yavapai attendees, I am the a*****e, that got the manufacture of cannons banned, so please accept my apologies. I primarily work on my own stuff and occasionally do some side work, but I do it because I love it and enjoy irritating people with some of the odd creations I hatch out. I feel blessed to have my "dream job" as I now work on guns all day long, except the smallest caliber I play with at work is 25mm (M242 Bushmaster) and goes all the way up to 5"/62cal (MK45). So I did finally become a "gunschmidt" but not the everyday kind, funny where life takes you. Sorry for the long winded response.

Mark

P.S. Spearchucker, would you have a lead on a used .25ACP reamer or one for a .270 REN? Nobody has a rental and I am too cheap to buy one new. Otherwise I may be taking my first crack at cutting a chamber on the lathe with a tool.
 
I actually can't rent reamers up here Crank. When they come across the border they would try to ding me sales tax and brokerage. Then there is the little issue of it sitting in customs for 2 to 3 weeks coming up and same thing going back. 2 months rent is more than just buying the fool reamer. If its for a customer make him buy the reamer.

You can cheat and buy a 25-06 reamer and then a 270, 308, 8mm and 338 neck & throat reamers with removable pilots and it will cover all 5 of those 06 base cases. You will also need to make a pilot adapter to allow the use of the larger pilots on that smaller nosed reamer. Lots of closet gunsmiths do that. Same with buying a straight 22x243 reamer and add the neck and throat reamers for 6mm, 25-06, 270, 284, 308, 8mm and 338.
 
Spearchucker,
Oh well, I have a Lothar Walther barrel that should be here any time now with a .251 groove depth, for a project I'm building to horrify Winchester collectors. It looks like some careful boring or making a D reamer (never done one of them either). The .270REN is a back-burner low priority for an 1885. Thanks for the reply!

Mark
 
Spearchucker,
Oh well, I have a Lothar Walther barrel that should be here any time now with a .251 groove depth, for a project I'm building to horrify Winchester collectors. It looks like some careful boring or making a D reamer (never done one of them either). The .270REN is a back-burner low priority for an 1885. Thanks for the reply!

Mark

Wideners (was it ?) used to almost give away the 25 acp "blem" bullets, I looked high and low a few times for any kind of bbl blank for them to no avail.
 
OK, 270 REN, Now I'm on the same page. It could be cut with a boring bar but you should still use a throating reamer if you want the best accuracy. You would probably be money ahead to get a finish reamer and the sell it on Flea-Bay after you use it. Some fool is bound to give you $50 and shipping. I have necked the Hornet down to 17 and 16 but I have never tried necking them up. I think you would definitely want to start with virgin brass and make some expander pins to neck it up to .277. You might be able to just fire form them with Bullseye and cereal but they might give you some splitting problems. .0265 inch per side in one shot is quite a jump on those thin necks.
 
That's a no-shit story - it was the first rifle I ever had customized, and he chattered the reamer. I thought I was seeing things when I saw the hex-bolt shaped case! This is a guy that "graduated the Gunsmith School at Yavapai College in Prescott, AZ" and, "worked at Gunsite and was personal friends with Jeff Cooper" and he was all proud that the telephone sales people at Sinclair knew him. This all happened circa 1995...

I spoke to someone else in the biz and showed him my hex-bolt shaped cases and after looking at the case for about 3-seconds he said "the guy chattered the reamer". When I called the clown to let him know what I found he asked me what kind of ammo I fired out of the rifle and when I told him I used PMC ammo, he actually told me that PMC ammo exceeds SAAMI specs and I voided any warranty.

So I called Sinclair to let them know what happened and they recommended I contact Dan Dowling and he fixed the rifle.

Then, one day around 2005, I walk in to Dillon Precision in Scottsdale, AZ to buy something, and who's working behind the counter - ole chatter reamer guy. I spent that afternoon on the phone with a few folks from Dillon explaining my experience with the retard and they confirmed that they had received a few other phone calls about the guy, but none like this one.

Bout a week later he didn't work there any more.

In the end, after Dan Dowling cut the chamber off and re-chambered it, that fricken rifle shot amazing little groups! I still have that cut-off chamber somewhere - a paperweight with a story!
You spent an afternoon on the phone talking to strangers about an event that happened a full decade prior, in a completely different setting, and are proud that 'he didn't work there any more.'?
 
Karma is a mother-f-er. The f-ing loser wannabe didn't even offer to refund the money I paid him.

You spent an afternoon on the phone talking to strangers about an event that happened a full decade prior, in a completely different setting, and are proud that 'he didn't work there any more.'?
 
Well, you can do what you believe is right and shrug your shoulders when someone f's your stuff up and takes your money -- I'll stick to what I believe is right and treat you like a gentleman if you were actually gentleman enough in the first place to fess up to your f-up and either fix it or offer to pay for the repair. Sans that, the Karma is on you.

That was a petty thing to do, on your behalf.
 
Karl,
If this is the individual I recall, I will only say for the sake of some anonimity, that his first name was Tim. That would be the same one that fired a round out of my boss's Model 19, through the wall, ammo display and between a female customer and myself. My boss had it on as his carry gun, unholstered it, handed it to this "expert" to let him try the trigger job, he proceeded to open the cylinder look straight at six Winchester .357 Mag Silvertips, snapped it shut and squeezed the trigger. As soon as I knew the customer was unhurt, I raced into the back room with my .45 drawn, expecting the worst and the idiot was standing there with a dumb-founded look on his face. Needless to say, the owner never trusted him in the shop again. I would go out of my way now, 20+ years later to do anything humanly possible to keep this guy away from the gun industry, he is a menace.

Cole, respectfully, this is not a matter of being petty, as opposed to being prudent. If you knew an individual was a child molester 10yrs ago and saw him working at an elementary school ten years later, I would certainly hope that you would pipe up to alert the right people of the potential threat.

Mark

Spearchucker, thanks for the input!
 
Cole, respectfully, this is not a matter of being petty, as opposed to being prudent. If you knew an individual was a child molester 10yrs ago and saw him working at an elementary school ten years later, I would certainly hope that you would pipe up to alert the right people of the potential threat.
Absolutely I would. But, that's a strawman argument and I think (hope?) you know that.

It would be prudent to warn someone of the guy's past, especially given your additional information.
 
That is why I stated my reply to you with sincere respect, at face value of the initial story, I would likely agree. Who knows, it could be another one of the many big talk idiots that I met through the years. That one guy was the closest I ever came to dropping someone in their tracks, because I raced into the back room expecting a threat.

Mark
 








 
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