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Anyone want to buy this damn okuma genos off me?

Haas service is hit and miss just like any other MTB. Difference with Haas is you need more parts and service. Spindles, ballscrews, way covers and you'll also need to change your lubrication system out every few years from grease to oil and back to grease again.

Every MTB is hit or miss, come to Minnesota and own a Mazak you will regret it instantly, you will be paying for someone to travel in from Chicago. HAAS on the other hand here, our HFO is great. I would say before purchasing any machine brand do research on service in your area. I've worked at many shops that the company did not and they were flying a tech in and paying for travel.

Haas goes to great lengths to hinder user reparability. They make a great deal of money from the service and repair side of things. Things that are basic and covered in the manuals of premium machines if users wish to do them themselves are super double secret on a Haas.
I have personally not experienced this one bit, now I have had very minimal issues with my 3 older, purchased used machines, (2004, 2005, 2013) but my HFO has been more than helpful with every issue I have ever had and on numerous occasions have sent me detailed instructions on how to test and/or fix something and provided PN's.

Haas is the absolute worst value if you are buying used. Haas used machines go for way more than other, significantly better machines. If you have cash a Haas is the worst thing you could buy.
My 3 machines are paid for and have well made me easily 10x what I paid for them in a short period of time, again, with very minimal issues. My 2013 EC400PP I bought just over a year ago now made me 10x what I paid for it in 12 months.
 
Every MTB is hit or miss, come to Minnesota and own a Mazak you will regret it instantly, you will be paying for someone to travel in from Chicago. HAAS on the other hand here, our HFO is great. I would say before purchasing any machine brand do research on service in your area. I've worked at many shops that the company did not and they were flying a tech in and paying for travel.


I have personally not experienced this one bit, now I have had very minimal issues with my 3 older, purchased used machines, (2004, 2005, 2013) but my HFO has been more than helpful with every issue I have ever had and on numerous occasions have sent me detailed instructions on how to test and/or fix something and provided PN's.


My 3 machines are paid for and have well made me easily 10x what I paid for them in a short period of time, again, with very minimal issues. My 2013 EC400PP I bought just over a year ago now made me 10x what I paid for it in 12 months.

Then you clearly bought the right machines for you. What is your point?
 
Clearly, the exact opposite of your point.

How so? You don't make any comparisons. Your point is essentially "I bought a machine tool and it machined stuff". The opposite of my point would be to emphasize some ways that Haas machines are superior to other brands. That's not what you did.

The guy asked why people were commenting that Haas was a huge downgrade from Okuma. I gave an answer that compares and contrasts Haas to other machine tools.
 
How so? You don't make any comparisons. Your point is essentially "I bought a machine tool and it machined stuff". The opposite of my point would be to emphasize some ways that Haas machines are superior to other brands. That's not what you did.

The guy asked why people were commenting that Haas was a huge downgrade from Okuma. I gave an answer that compares and contrasts Haas to other machine tools.
You replied to a question asking "Why do you not like Haas? I ran one 15 years ago or so and I thought it was a pretty good machine. It held size and the control was pretty easy for me to pick up. It seems like they have a lot of support in my area."

And in your reply you did not make a single comparison, nor did you even mention any other machine tool brand. I on the other hand did in fact make one comparison, to Mazak, to their service from a demographic standpoint. And shared my experience with HAAS service in my area for comparison.

I also in no way made any sort of comment about HAAS being superior to other brands.

Everything you stated was opinion based, maybe on your own personal experience with HAAS which is fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect it if you have experience with the subject, in this case HAAS, to back it up, but it is still just that your opinion, and I only shared my experience with HAAS machines as well as the one comparison to a machine brand, Mazak, which IMO would be a less superior machine based on my past experience with Mazak machines.
 
Is this a Ford vs. Chevy thing? We have an old Cinci Arrow, a Fryer with a Milltronics, two ProtoTRAK machines, a Milltronics lathe, a Milltronics VMC, an Hitachi Seiki Hi-Cell, and they all have issues. What it comes down to for me is how cheap I can buy something and how easy can I get repair info.

We don't have an EDM so we use the guy down the road from us. He has a couple of Haas machines and loves them.

Since we program most of the machines offline, the control is not a big issue for us. What I want is how close is the nearest tech, and how quickly do they return phone calls. We have a Haas office in our general vicinity.

One of my sons is like a lot of you guys and if something goes down "it's a piece of sh*t" and I never want another one". To me it seems like it's just life. Everything breaks down. If I can still get some help then I am happy. That is one of the reasons I like this forum. There are a lot of really smart people here and I like the dialogue even if I don't always agree with it. But I assume that everyone here is smarter than me so I am just trying to learn.

Thanks for the replies and to the OP for starting a lively discussion.
 
I agree with Garwood completely on this. There are many threads on this and other forums where a Haas and another machine tool were trying to run the same parts with the same tooling and programming. I cannot think of a single example where the Haas was the better machine and the only people I can think of that might think this would be the people getting more serious about CNC having just owned something more like a Tormach.

When they were pitted against something like Daewoo/Doosan/(Korean) they don't stand a hope... let alone against a decent Japanese built Mori Seiki or German built Deckel Maho. The best you have had is the best you know.

At the end of the day a skilled programmer/operator can always make up for many shortcomings in tools and equipment but better built and higher quality machines will save you a lot of money in tooling alone, let alone all the time wasted trying to get the vibration to stop while still getting good MRR. Just compare the spindle assembly from any Haas vertical 40 taper to something like Hitachi Seiki and it's obvious the two machines come from very far ends of the spectrum of rigidity and quality. Also they don't really have the same performance for the same stated values on the machine. They say a X HP Spindle and it doesn't equate to the same rated HP spindle made from Fanuc, for instance.

Just as an example: A Hitachi Seiki VS-40 from the early 2000's is a seriously rigid machine and could be had for a small fraction of what people pay for Haas. You should see the base iron casting on that machine... I remember running a 6in facemill in steel and the machine wasn't making a sound other than the raining of chips against the inside of the machine. Interesting to note the machine came in 50 taper too with most of the same castings, so that gives an indication of how beefy those machines are, yet very fast with linear rails. The tool changer assembly on that machine is so fast you almost can't see it switch tools.

Some people like Haas because of their support. Some people like "Domestic" vehicles for the same reason. Both can get the job done and if you didn't ever try anything else they both seem very good. The two industries are surprisingly comparable as I feel the machines are a reflection of the culture of where they come from.

Japan: Highest Quality and Reliability
German/Swiss: Highest Performance and Advanced Technology
Korean: Highest Value - Very good performance, quality, cost balance.
American: Lower cost, cheaper replacement parts, cheaper service. Cheaper.
 
I have an old Okuma, two old Mori's and an old P&W (Hamai).
All are H-E-A-V-Y and rigid. They can take monster cuts and the keep on going.
None are fast by today's standards.
All still hold tolerance.
 
Haas sells entry level machines at premium machine prices. They inflate the specs of their machines and/or rate their machines differently than every other machine tool builder so you cannot make a direct comparison.

61DdtrVrdhL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg
what do you think "premium" machine tools go for lol?
 
while not 'premium', IMHO haas stuff is overpriced for what its capable of compared to machines like doosan, okuma etc. that will blow the doors off any haas for about 10-20% more money.
10-20% more?!

Starting Price.....
HAAS VF3SS - $87,595
Genos M460-VE - $130,888 (40% higher)
Doosan BVN 5700 - $122,000 (33% more) - This price was found on a recent forum someone shared a quote.
 
I am in no way saying a HAAS is a superior machine to an Okuma or Doosan, or even close, if you have work that you need something more rigid, tight tolerances, heavy cutting, I will 100% agree buy something higher end. But if you are running a job shop and 95% of your work is aluminum, low quantities, basic tolerancing, you can make plenty of money and be plenty profitable with a HAAS.
 
10-20% more?!

Starting Price.....
HAAS VF3SS - $87,595
Genos M460-VE - $130,888 (40% higher)
Doosan BVN 5700 - $122,000 (33% more) - This price was found on a recent forum someone shared a quote.
why are you quoting starting prices? why not compare similar options? because you know when you do, the haas stuff gets REAL close...

and you REALLY should be comparing a VM3SS to a Genos, because the rigidity/accuracy of either genos or doosan is MUCH better than a base VF machine.
 
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how about that...

edit: okuma comes with 30 tool changer so knock off 16k off that number, still leaves it at 136k.

2nd edit: probing is optional on the okuma, so take off 5k.
still leaves you ON PAR pricing on the haas with okuma, but the okuma will STILL blow the haas out of the water, primarily due to a control thats easily 10x more powerful and drives that are much better.
this is the thing, when you compare apples to apples with 'entry level' import machines, haas will ALWAYS lose!
 
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how about that...

edit: okuma comes with 30 tool changer so knock off 16k off that number, still leaves it at 136k.

2nd edit: probing is optional on the okuma, so take off 5k.
still leaves you ON PAR pricing on the haas with okuma, but the okuma will STILL blow the haas out of the water, primarily due to a control thats easily 10x more powerful and drives that are much better.
this is the thing, when you compare apples to apples with 'entry level' import machines, haas will ALWAYS lose!
So to validate your 10-20% comment you added features to a base model HAAS to bring the price within that 10-20% price but when I shared base model prices your response was why are you quoting starting prices? Sure you are bringing the options to be comparable, but this just goes back to what I said, not all shops need the higher end machine or all the options another MTB comes standard with. It all becomes relative.

It actually all becomes a pointless argument for those that just want to dislike something and 90% of them are employees that collect a check. Its an argument no different than Chevy, Dodge, or Ford. The argument just can't be "won" by either side.

You continue to compare side by side and say HAAS will lose, I can agree to that, yup, you are right here 100%. But I have in no way tried to convince anyone HAAS is a superior machine and will outshine a competitor. Again its all relative to the company that buys the machine and their needs, its exactly why we have Kia, some people don't need anything fancy to get from A to B. There's a lot of shops that are plenty profitable with HAAS machines and aren't going to benefit spending $50 - 100k more on a machine. But sure go ahead and say, well the machine will be more accurate and faster so hypothetically if you take A + B x C they'll produce Y per minute and their shop rate is $XXX so they'll make $XXX more a year. WHATEVER, sure go for it. If a shop is breaking it down that far, chances are YES they should be buying a higher end machine that will produce.

I have 4 HAAS machines, for what I do, they are plenty, I am plenty profitable, they do everything I need them to do currently for my customer base which happens to be 95% aluminum parts, and very low quantity work, typically quantities of 1. I didn't technically chose this work, I reached out to customers and its what they sent, not one single customer knows what brand machines I have. Now lets say I happen to land a customer this year, and they started sending me stainless, titanium, whatever pick whatever floats your boat and the work starts to be consistent, I 100% WOULD, look into buying a higher end machine, I would look into buying an Okuma, I ran Okuma years ago, it was awesome, it was a great solid machine, I really liked the control, confusing at first, but after a few weeks, I'd take an OSP control over any other control I have personally ran.
 
So to validate your 10-20% comment you added features to a base model HAAS to bring the price within that 10-20% price but when I shared base model prices your response was why are you quoting starting prices? Sure you are bringing the options to be comparable, but this just goes back to what I said, not all shops need the higher end machine or all the options another MTB comes standard with. It all becomes relative.

It actually all becomes a pointless argument for those that just want to dislike something and 90% of them are employees that collect a check. Its an argument no different than Chevy, Dodge, or Ford. The argument just can't be "won" by either side.

You continue to compare side by side and say HAAS will lose, I can agree to that, yup, you are right here 100%. But I have in no way tried to convince anyone HAAS is a superior machine and will outshine a competitor. Again its all relative to the company that buys the machine and their needs, its exactly why we have Kia, some people don't need anything fancy to get from A to B. There's a lot of shops that are plenty profitable with HAAS machines and aren't going to benefit spending $50 - 100k more on a machine. But sure go ahead and say, well the machine will be more accurate and faster so hypothetically if you take A + B x C they'll produce Y per minute and their shop rate is $XXX so they'll make $XXX more a year. WHATEVER, sure go for it. If a shop is breaking it down that far, chances are YES they should be buying a higher end machine that will produce.

I have 4 HAAS machines, for what I do, they are plenty, I am plenty profitable, they do everything I need them to do currently for my customer base which happens to be 95% aluminum parts, and very low quantity work, typically quantities of 1. I didn't technically chose this work, I reached out to customers and its what they sent, not one single customer knows what brand machines I have. Now lets say I happen to land a customer this year, and they started sending me stainless, titanium, whatever pick whatever floats your boat and the work starts to be consistent, I 100% WOULD, look into buying a higher end machine, I would look into buying an Okuma, I ran Okuma years ago, it was awesome, it was a great solid machine, I really liked the control, confusing at first, but after a few weeks, I'd take an OSP control over any other control I have personally ran.
fair enough, you make good points. none of this was meant to be personal btw!
for now i am just an employee, but if all goes well, by the end of the year i might become a machine owner, and it'll be a GF mikron. i MIGHT pick up a 2011 VF3, the company i work for might be unloading one i bought for them when i just started, if i can grab it for like 15-20k, would be a good deal. is actually really clean and well kept for its age.
 
Nothing personal taken at all!

I was just someone that was there years ago, an employee with the hope to go on my own and I would be standing at my machine at the company I worked for quoting out new machines, telling myself I'll never be able to afford this and HAAS was actually not even a MTB I was considering, I had the exact same thought, low end machine that I'll just have issues with. I had plenty of experience running HAAS machines, and the shops I worked for that had HAAS had minimal issues as well. But I was reading these forums, FB posts, falling into all the comments. I came to realize I wasn't spending $130-150k for my first CNC, I did have a Bridgeport Ez Trak I ran parts I could from one customer occasionally for a good 6 years, but I knew I needed a CNC and I started pricing out brand new HAAS machines, at the time I could have bought a brand new VF2SS for $85k, I built a damn machine on their site probably 3-4x a week for 4-6 months trying to figure out what I actually needed and what I could go without to save money.

$85k was a lot to spend on a machine without clients, I was comfortable under $40k taking the risk, that was something I could easily afford the payment on with no work if it took some time to find customers. So I started browsing a lot of used machines and used HAAS I wasn't looking at, but I kept coming across them and ended up buying a 2005 VF2SS locally for $35k, I went and picked it up and hauled it home. I was able to bring in work quickly and paid the borrowed $35k off within a few months. I still have the machine, I've had it for 6 years now and the biggest repair I have had to make on it was the spindle motor went, I was down for 2 days, I had it rebuilt locally for $2200 with upgraded ceramic bearings. Other than a few minor $100-300 parts here and there, that I was able to get same day from my HFO, I've had no issues with it. After I paid the machine shop, I quit my full time job a couple months later, and had enough work to replace my income no problem and saved enough money to build a detached shop on my property, paid for in full.

I added a VF3SS, 3-4 years ago, 2 years ago I added my SL20 and last year I added my EC400 6 station pallet pool. Combined total of my 4 machines was $104k, and between the 4 I have maybe $4-5k in combined repairs.

So every time I see these posts, "HAAS sucks" " You can't make money with a HAAS" I roll my eyes, but also know I was there, and realize most the guys making these comments are employees in the same position I was in, and chances are they are trying to figure out how the hell they can afford a machine at the same time driving a $50-60k vehicle that depreciates and will cost more in maintenance than a used HAAS that will ultimately make the money.

Everyone has to start somewhere and if your goals are to be on your own, start small, minimal debt, something you can afford whether you have work or not, run a stress free operation! If I had no work for the next 3 months, I wouldn't have a worry in the world, my equipment, building, is all paid for. If you want to have that $500k 5 axis machine, goals are great! And when you hit your goals its a great feeling but you do not have to start with a $150k machine to get there.

I went into business for comfort, I have no interested in getting rich, I am very comfortable, I pay myself a decent wage and I barely work 40 hours a week, I do a lot of evening/weekend lights out runs. I've had weeks where I spend less than 20 hours in the shop but my machines are running 50-60 hours.

Opportunity is out there and acquiring customers is easier than ever now! We all have the internet in front of us and can reach customers across the nation in seconds, 20 years ago we'd be knocking on doors of potential customers we found in the yellow pages!

Sorry rant over! 😂
 
Nothing personal taken at all!

I was just someone that was there years ago, an employee with the hope to go on my own and I would be standing at my machine at the company I worked for quoting out new machines, telling myself I'll never be able to afford this and HAAS was actually not even a MTB I was considering, I had the exact same thought, low end machine that I'll just have issues with. I had plenty of experience running HAAS machines, and the shops I worked for that had HAAS had minimal issues as well. But I was reading these forums, FB posts, falling into all the comments. I came to realize I wasn't spending $130-150k for my first CNC, I did have a Bridgeport Ez Trak I ran parts I could from one customer occasionally for a good 6 years, but I knew I needed a CNC and I started pricing out brand new HAAS machines, at the time I could have bought a brand new VF2SS for $85k, I built a damn machine on their site probably 3-4x a week for 4-6 months trying to figure out what I actually needed and what I could go without to save money.

$85k was a lot to spend on a machine without clients, I was comfortable under $40k taking the risk, that was something I could easily afford the payment on with no work if it took some time to find customers. So I started browsing a lot of used machines and used HAAS I wasn't looking at, but I kept coming across them and ended up buying a 2005 VF2SS locally for $35k, I went and picked it up and hauled it home. I was able to bring in work quickly and paid the borrowed $35k off within a few months. I still have the machine, I've had it for 6 years now and the biggest repair I have had to make on it was the spindle motor went, I was down for 2 days, I had it rebuilt locally for $2200 with upgraded ceramic bearings. Other than a few minor $100-300 parts here and there, that I was able to get same day from my HFO, I've had no issues with it. After I paid the machine shop, I quit my full time job a couple months later, and had enough work to replace my income no problem and saved enough money to build a detached shop on my property, paid for in full.

I added a VF3SS, 3-4 years ago, 2 years ago I added my SL20 and last year I added my EC400 6 station pallet pool. Combined total of my 4 machines was $104k, and between the 4 I have maybe $4-5k in combined repairs.

So every time I see these posts, "HAAS sucks" " You can't make money with a HAAS" I roll my eyes, but also know I was there, and realize most the guys making these comments are employees in the same position I was in, and chances are they are trying to figure out how the hell they can afford a machine at the same time driving a $50-60k vehicle that depreciates and will cost more in maintenance than a used HAAS that will ultimately make the money.

Everyone has to start somewhere and if your goals are to be on your own, start small, minimal debt, something you can afford whether you have work or not, run a stress free operation! If I had no work for the next 3 months, I wouldn't have a worry in the world, my equipment, building, is all paid for. If you want to have that $500k 5 axis machine, goals are great! And when you hit your goals its a great feeling but you do not have to start with a $150k machine to get there.

I went into business for comfort, I have no interested in getting rich, I am very comfortable, I pay myself a decent wage and I barely work 40 hours a week, I do a lot of evening/weekend lights out runs. I've had weeks where I spend less than 20 hours in the shop but my machines are running 50-60 hours.

Opportunity is out there and acquiring customers is easier than ever now! We all have the internet in front of us and can reach customers across the nation in seconds, 20 years ago we'd be knocking on doors of potential customers we found in the yellow pages!

Sorry rant over! 😂
i actually dont have any problems with their 3 axis machines, like i mentioned, considering picking one up. anything more than 3 axis though, i'm staying the fuck away from. and this is from years of personal experience with their 3 and 5 axis machines.
 








 
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