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Anyone want to buy this damn okuma genos off me?

i actually dont have any problems with their 3 axis machines, like i mentioned, considering picking one up. anything more than 3 axis though, i'm staying the fuck away from. and this is from years of personal experience with their 3 and 5 axis machines.
This is the minimum Haas purchase for Empower :D
 
i actually dont have any problems with their 3 axis machines, like i mentioned, considering picking one up. anything more than 3 axis though, i'm staying the fuck away from. and this is from years of personal experience with their 3 and 5 axis machines.
They definitely have some machines they should just stay away from building!

There also seems to be some certain year periods with their verticals to stay away from as well.

The biggest thing is starting out, sure if you can afford a high end machine and you have no worries, go for it! But a lot of guys starting out don't and I would highly recommend not burying yourself in debt to buy a machine without ever knowing what customers you are going to land, but again, if you know for certain you are going to be doing some tight tolerance medical work, whatever it may be and can justify the purchase, do it!

Just as an example: A Hitachi Seiki VS-40 from the early 2000's is a seriously rigid machine and could be had for a small fraction of what people pay for Haas. You should see the base iron casting on that machine... I remember running a 6in facemill in steel and the machine wasn't making a sound other than the raining of chips against the inside of the machine. Interesting to note the machine came in 50 taper too with most of the same castings, so that gives an indication of how beefy those machines are, yet very fast with linear rails. The tool changer assembly on that machine is so fast you almost can't see it switch tools.
But for comparison, lets take this Hitachi Seiki VS-40, great machine, I'll agree, my HAAS VF3SS wouldn't compare, but FIND ONE.

Lets say you do find one, and get a great deal on it and something goes wrong, now, FIND PARTS
Sure, they are out there, with enough motivation you'll find one, and find parts. But in comparison, my VF3SS goes down, I can have damn near any part within an hour of sending over a PO to my HFO. I now have multiple machines so if a machine goes down, I'm not desperate to get it fixed but when I had one machine, down time could have killed me fast. When I only had my VF2SS, my draw bar went, I was only down for 3 - 4 hours, that included pulling the spindle, diagnosing, and running down to my HFO and grabbing a new draw bar and putting it all back together.
 
If the machining economy wasn't shit currently, I would buy it right now.
replace my two Haas MiniMills with it.
A lot of machine and only 1000 hours :D
i've inspected it personally, its a phenomenal machine! would have bought it 2 years ago but banks were absolute cocksuckers. in about 2-3 months here i hopefully will be in a position to just buy it outright, would be a hell of a machine to start with.
 
What I don't like about that Mikron design is the tilting axis perpendicular to the longest travel axis.

If you tilt your part at all your max travel cutting along the part will be your Y axis. I prefer 5 axis machines where the tilting axis is aligned with the longest axis so you can run longer parts at tilted angles. Also, if you decide to run a multisided fixture you again will be not able to make the most of your X axis. I've been making molds lately on my 5 axis mills and this comes into play frequently.
 
What I don't like about that Mikron design is the tilting axis perpendicular to the longest travel axis.

If you tilt your part at all your max travel cutting along the part will be your Y axis. I prefer 5 axis machines where the tilting axis is aligned with the longest axis so you can run longer parts at tilted angles. Also, if you decide to run a multisided fixture you again will be not able to make the most of your X axis. I've been making molds lately on my 5 axis mills and this comes into play frequently.
what machines arent like that? i may be wrong, but i'm pretty sure all machines are designed that way, since it gives you the most clearance for tool changes. happy to be proven wrong!
 
what machines arent like that? i may be wrong, but i'm pretty sure all machines are designed that way, since it gives you the most clearance for tool changes. happy to be proven wrong!

Just off the top of my head, Deckel Maho MC800H (800m in X, the trunnion can also tilt away 35 degrees which is great when you need to.)

MC800H.jpg
DMG DMU65H

DMU65H.jpg

DMG DMU65 Monoblock

DMU65.jpg

I know of a few more of this type from DMG but you get the idea.

The Evolution series are quite interesting:

DMU_Evolution.jpg

I have had 3 of these and they are excellent in that when you put the B axis at 180 the full X travel can be used along the part. They take more work to program to their travel limits though because as the table swivels the travels rotate around Z relative to the table.

Hermle C65: (Toolchanger at back so clearance is never an issue)

Hermle.jpg

and from Japan:

Kitamura Mytrunnion series:

Kitamura Mytrunnion.jpg

Mitsui Seiki:

Mitsui Seiki.jpg
 
"Almost" all high end 5 axis have that orientation, and almost all entry level 5 axis have the other orientation.
So its a cost vs precision, vs what do I need for how much money thing.
Not everyone is making the space shuttle.
Most of us are making fidget spinners. :D
 
To add a little more to this:

DMU50V_Tombstone.jpg

This is on a gen 1 DMU50V (Later called "eVolution"), the design allows for this large tombstone to be mounted and the entire travels of the machine are able to be used in this orientation. Because the X is the longest axis you can still mill on the sides of this tombstone in this position as well. Almost all 5 axis machines that have a trunnion in either direction will sacrifice useable travel when the tilt is 90 degrees to the spindle axis. The evolution machines don't have this problem and the newer ones, as well as the 70V don't have anything sticking up past the table surface so you can swing larger parts that overhang the table. Also, the table to spindle offset is large and when the B axis is swiveled to this orientation the table centerline is much lower than on many trunnion designs. This allows for you to still use longer tools even though the machine itself is quite small.

These things aren't very obvious but if you model the machine in CAD and then start simulating what the machine can and can't do it becomes very apparent why some of these machines are absolutely excellent in flexibility. My MC800H is a great example.
 
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"Almost" all high end 5 axis have that orientation, and almost all entry level 5 axis have the other orientation.
So its a cost vs precision, vs what do I need for how much money thing.
Not everyone is making the space shuttle.
Most of us are making fidget spinners. :D

As someone that does have experience in this I'm trying to share what might not be obvious to those thinking of investing in such equipment.

I personally own several of these machines and I would never consider a machine that the tilt axis is along Y unless it is the spindle that tilts. My DMU monoblocks (Now called "Monoblock classic series") are like this...

1714577586979.png

The only reason I like these machines are for machining long parts that need to be held on both ends like this cylinder head shown above. For anything that can fit on the table-table machines, I much prefer using them.

I would show images of the large molds I've been running on the evolution but I cannot due to NDA's...

Dave / Nerv
 
As someone that does have experience in this I'm trying to share what might not be obvious to those thinking of investing in such equipment.

I personally own several of these machines and I would never consider a machine that the tilt axis is along Y unless it is the spindle that tilts. My DMU monoblocks (Now called "Monoblock classic series" are like this...

View attachment 438094

The only reason I like these machines are for machining long parts that need to be held on both ends like this cylinder head shown above. For anything that can fit on the table-table machines, I much prefer using them.

I would show images of the large molds I've been running on the evolution but I cannot due to NDA's...

Dave / Nerv

Understandable, and yes it is something to be aware of.
But depends on your part needs, buying a $600k 5 axis to make parts that can be made on a $200k 5 axis is not a smart business choice.
With through put in mind you could have bought two $200k machines with pallet automation and been way ahead of the game profit wise.

Or even in the GF entry level scenario, if you needed more travel, going from the 500mm to the 700mm the cost is still less than a machine with the other orientation.

So it really depends on your shops part needs.

The only entry level machine with that orientation is a Hermle, which is why it would be high on my list of recommends.
But also with automation, pallets/robots will have to load parts through the front door, as a lot of these machines don't have side access due to the orientation and design.
 
Understandable, and yes it is something to be aware of.
But depends on your part needs, buying a $600k 5 axis to make parts that can be made on a $200k 5 axis is not a smart business choice.
With through put in mind you could have bought two $200k machines with pallet automation and been way ahead of the game profit wise.

Or even in the GF entry level scenario, if you needed more travel, going from the 500mm to the 700mm the cost is still less than a machine with the other orientation.

So it really depends on your shops part needs.

The only entry level machine with that orientation is a Hermle, which is why it would be high on my list of recommends.
But also with automation, pallets/robots will have to load parts through the front door, as a lot of these machines don't have side access due to the orientation and design.
as with everything, its gonna be a compromise, there is no 'perfect' machine out there.
 
Even though not the more bestest, that Mazak 300AWC would make me a LOT of $$$
while i dont disagree with you, i dont see anything about this machine that makes it better than any other offering out there with a pallet pool/tool tower systems.
 
while i dont disagree with you, i dont see anything about this machine that makes it better than any other offering out there with a pallet pool/tool tower systems.
No, its just the all in one deal, lot of pallets, and lot of tools, ZPS similar already, one and done solution instead of piecing it together.
They want more dinero's than its worth though to me anyway.
I'll be piecing something together for my fidget spinners. :D
 
No, its just the all in one deal, lot of pallets, and lot of tools, ZPS similar already, one and done solution instead of piecing it together.
They want more dinero's than its worth though to me anyway.
I'll be piecing something together for my fidget spinners. :D
i cant imagine anything less than 600k for that setup, likely 700+. similar offerings are available from just about every big name builder out there.
 
Rant on:

I am OVER Okuma and the STUPID @#%^!#@*&^* code & restrictive (and never correct) naming parameters!!!!!
I am going to sell this NON FANUC:angry: language POS. It sits most of the time, not making me any money.
Haas can expect a call soon.
At least the control is easy, and every machinist knows the G-code is standard.

Machinists in Houston (or the many I have interviewed) don't know and do not WANT TO KNOW how to speak Okuma code.
:angry:
Fanuc is just too common.
Rant off!
Well, I learned on Bridgeport DX-32
It was a pita...
After that, every other language was a piece of cake.
What does this thing look like?
 








 
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