Are milling chucks obsolete?

[TAIWA NUMBA WAAN]

I've read the older threads on this site comparing milling chucks and side locks, etc. They generally end up favoring the side locks. But almost every tool holder manufacturer is still making milling chucks, and people still buy them. I'm tempted to get one or two in BT30 dual contact at the shortest gauge length, but it's still 70mm (2.75").

I have a few other collet options competing with the milling chucks; SK, VC, DS, and of course ER (linked pictures for comparison). I am afraid of endmill pullout with collet systems, but I am skeptical of running side lock holders in a 24k spindle due to balance.

So I'm wondering, in what circumstances are milling chucks the best choice? Will they outperform the collet holders and sidelocks in a BT30?

 

[broke]

I only have one milling chuck and it was to spin a 1 inch holder at 15K.

You nailed it about balance. FWIW I have never had tool pull out of a collet.

I am all aboard the shrink fit train at the moment.

 

[Mtndew]

I am afraid of endmill pullout with collet systems,

They do make collets that have anti-pullout features for use with Weldon shank end mills.

 

[1032screw]

Is tool pullout really a thing to be worried about at 24k rpm on a BT30 taper? Seems like that would be a crazy aggressive cut.

 

[rootsandstones]

I never had problems with pullout with the ER system. I use it up to 20mm endmills in steel.

 

[crossthread82]

They do make collets that have anti-pullout features for use with Weldon shank end mills.

Regofix secure grip er collets are fk'n tits if you need to upgrade standard collet holders.

 

[crossthread82]

If you want short with pull out prevention then you want the following:

Regofix 2130.13226 stub ER32 BBT30 holder
Regofix SecuRgrip ER32 collets

 

[BT Fabrication]

ive got a ton of milling collets. they are all balanceable, yet i cant balance them. got a bunch of them with the machine.
downside is collets are $50 a piece.
ER are like $20 or so per.
only had one er 3/8" spin on me. jammed up flutes and spun around like a record in the holder.

 

[Orange Vise]

but I am skeptical of running side lock holders in a 24k spindle due to balance.

Are you going to be doing much aluminum roughing at 24K? Does your spindle even have enough torque at max RPM to push roughing tools to where they'd pull out?

I think realistically, you're just not going to encounter a situation where this is going to be a problem. You're either going to have to slow it down, dial back the cutting parameters, or both, due to reasons other than tool balance.

 

[TAIWA NUMBA WAAN]

They do make collets that have anti-pullout features for use with Weldon shank end mills.

I have seen a few of these systems, the only problem is that they are usually super expensive, and I haven't found any in BBT30 with short gauge length.

If you want short with pull out prevention then you want the following:

Regofix 2130.13226 stub ER32 BBT30 holder
Regofix SecuRgrip ER32 collets

These are cool, but the ER collet itself costs about $300, the holder costs another $400, and the little weldon flat thingy with the threads doesn't have a price listed anywhere online that I can find. Without that little threaded piece, it would basically just be a regular ER collet.

Are you going to be doing much aluminum roughing at 24K? Does your spindle even have enough torque at max RPM to push roughing tools to where they'd pull out?

I think realistically, you're just not going to encounter a situation where this is going to be a problem. You're either going to have to slow it down, dial back the cutting parameters, or both, due to reasons other than tool balance.

Yes, the spindle has 10kw from 12,500 to 20,000 RPM. I think this is its S6 100% load, so peak power and torque can probably double that for shorter durations. I don't want to have unbalanced tools and holders in the ATC if there's a chance they get used at 24k rpm. So unless a sidelock is balanced (along with the endmill, flat, set screw) at that speed, I don't want to risk it being in the machine.

I have had endmills pull out in the past with feeds and speeds that I didn't think were dangerous, so I would rather overcompensate with exess tool holding force rather than risk yoinking an endmill out and trashing a spindle (or anything else in the machine).

Your older videos show a beefy looking milling chuck in the Mori horizontal you used, did you ever have problems with that thing? I am leaning towards SK16 and SK20 because I can get them in dual contact BT30 with 60mm gauge length, I'm just wondering what makes people choose a milling chuck in their particular application compared to other holder types.

 

[Orange Vise]

Your older videos show a beefy looking milling chuck in the Mori horizontal you used, did you ever have problems with that thing? I am leaning towards SK16 and SK20 because I can get them in dual contact BT30 with 60mm gauge length, I'm just wondering what makes people choose a milling chuck in their particular application compared to other holder types.

Those were Nikken Lyndex dual contact CAT40 holders. They're still in use today. One of them holds a 3/4" finisher for steel while the larger ones hold 1.25" shank Mitsubishi AXD endmills. The smaller one has an 80mm gage length.

We have a few SK16s in our Brothers. SK20 will have higher gripping force, mostly because you can torque the nut harder.

 

[Vancbiker]

Some reason you are not looking at shrink fit holders? 10kW is not a very high HP spindle. We used shrink holders on the 80kW 33k rpm spindle at the shop I retired from.

 

[TAIWA NUMBA WAAN]

Some reason you are not looking at shrink fit holders? 10kW is not a very high HP spindle. We used shrink holders on the 80kW 33k rpm spindle at the shop I retired from.

Mainly that I don't have an induction heater and can't justify one, plus the gauge lengths are usually 3 inches or more, which isn't good for rigidity. I use the

DS style collet holders (which look exactly like shrink fit holders but use pull-back collets) instead. They cost about 50 dollars each here in Taiwan, and are functionally the same thing as shrink fit holders, although I'm not sure if they grip as hard.

@Orange Vise
The Lyndex milling chucks in your videos have that necked area under the CT flange that extends the gauge length. Looks like it cuts smoothly in your videos, but I don't think a BBT30 can work like that. The most rigid looking milling chucks I've seen are the ones from Big Kaiser / Big Daishowa with the shortest gauge length, have you used these before? I'm wondering if hydraulics would suffice since they can be stubbier. Have you ever had an SK16 pull out while roughing?

I'm in Taiwan so the Japanese brands are available, but some of the local brands make the same things at like 10-20% of the price. It's possible to fill up an ATC here for about 1000 dollars.

 

[SteveEx30]

The shrink fit machines are crazy expensive. But if your only using small cutters 8mm and smaller a propane torch does the trick. I know people would hate I suggested that but been using it on my same holders for 15+ years without issue. Buy GOOD holders like slimline. No disappointments!

 

[OVodov]

Mainly that I don't have an induction heater and can't justify one, plus the gauge lengths are usually 3 inches or more, which isn't good for rigidity. I use the

DS style collet holders (which look exactly like shrink fit holders but use pull-back collets) instead. They cost about 50 dollars each here in Taiwan, and are functionally the same thing as shrink fit holders, although I'm not sure if they grip as hard.

@Orange Vise
The Lyndex milling chucks in your videos have that necked area under the CT flange that extends the gauge length. Looks like it cuts smoothly in your videos, but I don't think a BBT30 can work like that. The most rigid looking milling chucks I've seen are the ones from Big Kaiser / Big Daishowa with the shortest gauge length, have you used these before? I'm wondering if hydraulics would suffice since they can be stubbier. Have you ever had an SK16 pull out while roughing?

I'm in Taiwan so the Japanese brands are available, but some of the local brands make the same things at like 10-20% of the price. It's possible to fill up an ATC here for about 1000 dollars.

I can build your own heater machine. Haimer has ultra short shrink fit holders for BT30 - 2.36" long

 

[Orange Vise]

The Lyndex milling chucks in your videos have that necked area under the CT flange that extends the gauge length. Looks like it cuts smoothly in your videos, but I don't think a BBT30 can work like that. The most rigid looking milling chucks I've seen are the ones from Big Kaiser / Big Daishowa with the shortest gauge length, have you used these before?

We have Big Kaiser milling chucks with the same 1.75" necked region. It's a CAT40 requirement.

BT/BBT doesn't have this requirement. This one looks pretty good: https://www.bigkaiser.eu/en/product...g-chucks/mega-double-power-chuck/978.188.html

I'm in Taiwan so the Japanese brands are available, but some of the local brands make the same things at like 10-20% of the price. It's possible to fill up an ATC here for about 1000 dollars.

Might be okay for less critical tools.

 

[cosmos_275]

We have a few SK16s in our Brothers. SK20 will have higher gripping force, mostly because you can torque the nut harder.

I think Frank over at Maritool told me the SK won't necessarily hold on any better than ER. Reason being ER has two tapers, SK only one. I believe you can send you tools in for balancing.. might be an option.. maybe not so easy from Taiwan though.

 

[mhajicek]

Mainly that I don't have an induction heater and can't justify one

You can't justify $4500?

Induction Heat Machine for Shrink Fit Tools MariTool

www.maritool.com

 

[finix]

If you’re located in Taiwan, which I think you are. An induction with low output starts at about 1k, the exact one haas sells is about 2k? here, I can give you the OEM name privately if you want. If you need balancing after assembling the tool in Taichung area, Annway will do it, if you buy their holders. Not the best holders but you get what you pay for, service however is excellent. I’ve been running custom and standard HSK and BBT holders from them. If you want a decent collet chuck locally, many people I know swear by YAMAKEN.

 

[finix]

By the way if your looking for short stubby BBT30 holders. Annway has some extra left over from custom holders made for me recently. Practically no gage length side locks, and stubby 40-50mm extra thick shrink holders. They are not listed however, so you need to specifically ask for it.