Are milling chucks obsolete?

[MCritchley]

Those were Nikken Lyndex dual contact CAT40 holders. They're still in use today. One of them holds a 3/4" finisher for steel while the larger ones hold 1.25" shank Mitsubishi AXD endmills. The smaller one has an 80mm gage length.

We have a few SK16s in our Brothers. SK20 will have higher gripping force, mostly because you can torque the nut harder.

I run a few of those same Lyndex Nikken Holders, they are awesome and hold concentricity within a tenth.
They are quite stiff, I get great finishes and tool life when using the milling chucks.

 

[MCritchley]

I think Frank over at Maritool told me the SK won't necessarily hold on any better than ER. Reason being ER has two tapers, SK only one. I believe you can send you tools in for balancing.. might be an option.. maybe not so easy from Taiwan though.

I would like to see data on that claim.

 

[cosmos_275]

I would like to see data on that claim.

Me too. Seems an easy enough test to setup. You could clamp them both to a rod and do tug of war.

 

[TAIWA NUMBA WAAN]

I think Frank over at Maritool told me the SK won't necessarily hold on any better than ER. Reason being ER has two tapers, SK only one. I believe you can send you tools in for balancing.. might be an option.. maybe not so easy from Taiwan though.

See the video below. ER32 gripped at 80 foot-pounds, SK16 gripped at 220.

From what I've read, milling chucks can do even more. I assume the grip torque is proportional to the pullout force.

 

[MCritchley]

See the video below. ER32 gripped at 80 foot-pounds, SK16 gripped at 220.

From what I've read, milling chucks can do even more. I assume the grip torque is proportional to the pullout force.

Thanks for sharing, that’s the info I’ve been going off of for quite some time. It’s been a while since I’ve seen the pullout data, endmill chucks have quite a bit more gripping strength.

In a nutshell, use SK collets for endmills or a milling Chuck if you don’t go the heat shrink route.

 

[cosmos_275]

In a pull only test, the ER's front taper should tighten as you pull it forward, but seems unlikely it would be enough to overcome that difference. Thanks for sharing the video.

 

[gkoenig]

In a nutshell, use SK collets for endmills or a milling Chuck if you don’t go the heat shrink route.

The big X Factor that goes under-discussed in discussions about tool holders is operator quality.

Unless you have an extremely tightly run environment with top-tier people, collet based systems become a real problem as folks will abuse them, not track wear properly, not keep everything clean, or assemble poorly.

In my experience and testing, Big Diashowa’s New Mega Baby collets are incredible for runout, dampening, and pull resistance - especially the on-size ground models for end mills. We’re talking performance nearly on-par with Rego Fix PG… but these collets are also extra fussy about sanitation, difficult to work with, and easy to bugger. You invest in them and throw the system into a shop floor that won’t run them right, you may as well have just bought mid-tier ER and called it good.

Milling chucks, old-school screw set holders, heat shrink, Rego Fix PG- the big advantage they have is you can’t really screw them up. Nothing to torque, tight fits during assembly that wipe contamination away from critical surfaces, lower components counts, etc etc.

 

[mhajicek]

Milling chucks, old-school screw set holders, heat shrink, Rego Fix PG- the big advantage they have is you can’t really screw them up.

Well...

I have seen a milling chuck that was over torqued such that it would never open. Fortunately it was on an indexable mill body, so it could still be used as long as that body didn't get buggered.

I have seen sidelock holders that had been used with smooth shank HSS cutters, probably drills, which had spun in the holder, marfing up the bore.

I haven't seen it, but from what I've read, shrink fit holders can get overcooked and ruined.

Make something foolproof...

 

[crossthread82]

...Rego Fix PG- the big advantage they have is you can’t really screw them up. Nothing to torque, tight fits during assembly that wipe contamination away from critical surfaces, lower components counts, etc etc.

The PG system I can attest is very easy to use and super simple. However... it HAS to be clean. When the press forces the collet into the holder with 8-10k lbs of force even the tiniest speck of anything will get imbedded into either the OD of the collet or the tapered bore of the holder. It'll throw off the runout of the system and likely trash the collet and holder.

Luckily Rego gives you bore cleaners with disposable paper wipes for cleaning the holders out with and I also use them to wipe the OD of the collet before assembly. They really are one of the better styles of holders I've used; excellent runout, extreme clamping force, slim holder profile, quick assembly/disassembly, simple design.

 

[Orange Vise]

The big X Factor that goes under-discussed in discussions about tool holders is operator quality.

Unless you have an extremely tightly run environment with top-tier people, collet based systems become a real problem as folks will abuse them, not track wear properly, not keep everything clean, or assemble poorly.

Yes.

We buy extra collets and nuts so we always have fresh ones that can be swapped in quickly. This is a third layer of redundancy, on top of duplicate tool assemblies outside of the machine and sister tools inside the machine.

Collets and nuts get batch cleaned in ultrasonics.

 

[SpeedsandFeeds]

I have had great experience with the Mill Chuck tool holder from Lyndex Nikken, they are great holders and would recommend for surfacing or linear roughing operations. They also have great tool runout if used correctly.

 

[TAIWA NUMBA WAAN]

I have had great experience with the Mill Chuck tool holder from Lyndex Nikken, they are great holders and would recommend for surfacing or linear roughing operations. They also have great tool runout if used correctly.

Does the gauge length limit your usage of these? I do see they have one specification for a fairly short one, this 70mm one, but most of the ones on their website have unnecessary gauge length added. And they're almost 600 dollars each!

Big Daishowa/Kaiser has some really nice looking ones with minimal gauge length but of course they don't list the prices on their website.

The holder in this video looks pretty stubby, I haven't seen any other milling chucks that look this short.

I just got a quote from a local company, they have
- BBT30 SK16 for $61 each,
- BBT30 VC12 for $77 each,
- BBT30 ER25 for $41 each,
- BBT30 DS08 for $66 each,
and the milling chucks are BBT30 12mm diameter 70mm gauge length for $116, but these have a 3 month lead time.
I don't know exactly what benefits the VC style collet system would have over the SK style, they look identical except the VC has a back pilot. The only video on the internet I can find with a VC collet holder is this video from Lyndex Nikken from 5 years ago

.
I don't know if they still make and sell these or if they are obsolete.
Has anyone here used both the VC and the SK type holders?

 

[Mtndew]

plus the gauge lengths are usually 3 inches or more, which isn't good for rigidity.

You'd be surprised at how rigid a dual contact shrink fit holder can be.
Unless you're doing some heavy slotting, but if you're slotting then you wouldn't want a collet anyway.

 

[Machinerer]

I would like to see data on that claim.

I don't buy it at all. The steeper angle makes a big difference, and I don't buy that the second angle on an ER collet does a whole lot. There's also a reason why Big Daishowa is discontinuing their ER line.

 

[gkoenig]

There's also a reason why Big Daishowa is discontinuing their ER line.

Because why pay Big D pricing for ho-hum ER performance?

I think ER is great for drills/taps and it isn't like this is a defective techology that has't produced billions of parts over the decades, but spending big $$$ on ER from a company like Big Daishowa or Rego Fix or Haimer makes very little sense to me. If you are spending that kind of money, step up to one of the better systems.

 

[BluishInventor]

So I'm wondering, in what circumstances are milling chucks the best choice? Will they outperform the collet holders and sidelocks in a BT30?

From my experience, milling chucks are best suited for roughing applications. They provide some shock absorption and extend tool life as compared to a sidelock or shrink fit. I've personally never seen one balance well and the grease inside them moves around making it difficult to actually balance them to say the 2.5G standard.

Side-lock holders to me aren't something I would run in a machine that spins over 10k. Even with a pre ground weldon flat or a hand ground flat, tool pull out is still possible. I see these as convenient holders for quick setups where cutting forces stay conservative rather than aggressive.

ER systems, and similar systems, I don't see too many pull outs if the collet is torqued properly. I'm comfortable running moderate cutting forces and speeds up to 15k unbalanced. Taking care and cleaning of the collets and nuts is vital to their performance and run-out repeatability. And like the milling chucks, these systems provide some shock absorption in heavier cuts.

Shrink fit tooling, to me, is tailored for accurate and high speed finishing and semi-finishing. Breaking a tool flush with the end of the holder is no fun and can damage the surface that clamps onto the tool. So, running these hard generally isn't a good idea. Rigidity here is supreme(especially with dual contact), but again, rigidity in roughing isn't always your friend.

Hydraulic holders, I haven't had too much trouble with. I can't recall a time where they failed me. I haven't seen them balance well and generally don't run them above 15k. I have used them for both roughing and finishing.

We have a Haimer Balancing machine and the Haimer Shrink fit holders are the only holders I've seen actually balance to 2.5 at 24k. Our big kaiser holders don't even come close, but BK has their own balancing standard as they say 2.5 is not a great standard to balance tool assemblies to. For our Yasda Vi40, it states all tools should be balanced to the 2.5G standard. I'm not a balancing expert by any means, so I'm not sure what to believe. Therefore I follow the Machine Tool's guidelines rather than the Tool Holder manufacturer's.

That's my2c.

 

[OVodov]

 

[OVodov]

I love shrink fit holders but trying not to use them for roughing.
Heavy duty hydraulic holders or milling chuck (not weldon chuck) are best option for roughing.
The reason I don't like weldon only because they don't give an option to play with tool stickout.

 

[Milland]

Interesting pair of videos - would like a little more in-depth review of toolholders, but it does show the advantages of hydraulics in this test.

 

[JSL_MFG]

I favor hydraulic holders over milling chucks. My iscar rep once told me that hydraulics have better vibration dampening, but I've never cared enough to look into that.