Bridgeport Step Pulley Restoration

[ScubaSteve]

FWIW, I look forward to your stuff, Brad. You take the time to document what you're doing with some really nice pics....hell, I've had several of them as my desktop background. I'm here to learn, and machine p0rn like this is what keeps me coming back.

I honestly don't understand why there is so much elitism on this site...I have a lot of interests and follow several forums.....I've never seen anything like it.

 

[Shawn Ghormley]

Very nice write up, and I really like the pictures, thank you.

 

[CWB]

I honestly don't understand why there is so much elitism on this site....

I dont believe it was elitism, simply being respectful of those who have completed genuine restorations, which was a valid point on abarnsley's part that was poorly taken by the OP. Considering the amount of time he has volunteered to help others (including myself) on this forum and via pms, many of whom have little to no machine operations experience, I would say abarnsley falls into the category of being a "good guy."

His point was a very valid one. Anyone can repaint and make basic repairs to a machine, but depending upon your personal opinion, doing so may or may not be considered a "restoration" as the title of this thread implies. Machinists by nature tend to be rather picky about machine performance and tolerances, so to most, a repaint and simple repairs arent a resto, just as a bondo'ed fender isnt a restoration at a concours event. Personally, when I hear the term restoration, I think of "factory new" to include a complete survey and re-scrape, and the OP hasnt mentioned the first step involved in this - determining if the major castings/components are even worth the effort. Why repair or repaint if you need to scrap (not scrape) the knee, table etc? I see a few quick hours paint prep and repair work in this thread thus far, but no real restoration. While going to this extreme may be unnecessary, and not to disparage the OP, but he did come onto a professional's site and create a post showing a "restoration."

As an FYI, I am not a machinist nor trying to take sides, simply saying that I can understand both sides of the argument having owned both tools and cars that were "restored" by others but needed rather extensive work by me. I have been studying and playing at small scraping projects for a bit over a year now, but havent touched a scraper to a machine tool yet. Personally, I give a lot of credit to those who do a restoration, as it involves many hundreds of hours of time and patience. I also wouldnt call any of my own machines thus far restorations, as I have only done the usual low hours scrub/paint/repairs.

 

[ScubaSteve]

It IS a valid point, no doubt. But there are many ways to make a point.

 

[Mark Rand]

To be fair, I was gathering my thoughts to make a post along the same lines as Mr Barnsley's. I might have been more diplomatic, I might have been less. I certainly have a reputation at work for saying the truth, rather than what my bosses want to hear.

I spent four years rebuilding a Hardinge HLV, using parts from five different machines plus a lot of parts I made myself plus a lot of scraping and spot grinding work. Then I painted it. I'm part way through rebuilding a Beaver BVRP milling machine and I've just finished scraping 10 thou of hog and four thou of wear out of the table. I can now use that as a master for the saddle. I had to make completely new feed screw nuts, but the variation on the X screw itself is less than a thou, so still good for climb milling when I'm finished (I had plans for re-lapping the scew, but am glad I don't need to).

Mr Barnsley said that the machine has got 8 thou of wear on it because, by visual inspection, it's almost certainly got that much or more. If the machine is to be used over its full range for profit making work, it's not worth the effort. If it's to be used over its full range for hobby work, it will cause irritation every time it's used. If it's to be used over a very small part of its range, then it's probably usable. But a new small milling machine of no particular brand or country would probably be a better investment.

I've got a specific use for my 10x48" boat anchor and no-one's paying for my time (The wife would probably pay to keep me out of the house though). That project will demand that I can mill 24" long features parallel and normal to better than half a thou per foot as originally specified. But if it was in the condition it was when I got it, or like the Brad's machine looks at the moment, then it wouldn't justify a lick of paint on it after the basic clean up.

So Mr Jacob, rather than getting all upset, take the comments in good part. If the machine's only going to be used for small parts and non-precision stuff, no problem. If it's wanted to produce large pieces that don't need later filing and scraping for a good fit, then it needs a lot more work before paint choices become meaningful.

Assuming that it's not the major bread-winner for the family, have fun with it anyway.

Regards
Mark Rand

 

[bradjacob]

To be fair, I was gathering my thoughts to make a post along the same lines as Mr Barnsley's. I might have been more diplomatic, I might have been less. I certainly have a reputation at work for saying the truth, rather than what my bosses want to hear.

I spent four years rebuilding a Hardinge HLV, using parts from five different machines plus a lot of parts I made myself plus a lot of scraping and spot grinding work. Then I painted it. I'm part way through rebuilding a Beaver BVRP milling machine and I've just finished scraping 10 thou of hog and four thou of wear out of the table. I can now use that as a master for the saddle. I had to make completely new feed screw nuts, but the variation on the X screw itself is less than a thou, so still good for climb milling when I'm finished (I had plans for re-lapping the scew, but am glad I don't need to).

Mr Barnsley said that the machine has got 8 thou of wear on it because, by visual inspection, it's almost certainly got that much or more. If the machine is to be used over its full range for profit making work, it's not worth the effort. If it's to be used over its full range for hobby work, it will cause irritation every time it's used. If it's to be used over a very small part of its range, then it's probably usable. But a new small milling machine of no particular brand or country would probably be a better investment.

I've got a specific use for my 10x48" boat anchor and no-one's paying for my time (The wife would probably pay to keep me out of the house though). That project will demand that I can mill 24" long features parallel and normal to better than half a thou per foot as originally specified. But if it was in the condition it was when I got it, or like the Brad's machine looks at the moment, then it wouldn't justify a lick of paint on it after the basic clean up.

So Mr Jacob, rather than getting all upset, take the comments in good part. If the machine's only going to be used for small parts and non-precision stuff, no problem. If it's wanted to produce large pieces that don't need later filing and scraping for a good fit, then it needs a lot more work before paint choices become meaningful.

Assuming that it's not the major bread-winner for the family, have fun with it anyway.

Regards
Mark Rand

Mark -

Let me first say that I appreciate YOUR well-thought, factual and "constructively-aimed" comment. I understand what every word of what you mean and it was presented in a friendly, helpful manner.

Barnsley shot from the hip. He was rude and was taking an obvious jab at me. Why? And for that, I swung back and gave him a well deserved slap.

Now - let me tell you what's really frustrating: I can not control the direction of the conversation. My posts began with a little info on purchase, then it went into disassembly (with a few hiccups) and then into de-greasing. I made a comment that since the degreaser worked so well, that I most likely wouldnt repaint. Very "matter of fact" comment... Some folks chimed in and it was discussed a little.

Then this guy fires into me with an aggressive condescending comment about my worthless restoration, bla bla bla... Has anyone read my I wrote about my intended use for the machine? OK, because I'll spell it out again... I'm NOT a pro-machinist, I'll be using the mill for hobby work and most likely will generate $0 dollars. Now - that's not to say, I won't take every step to ensure it gets back to being accurate. My saddle does have wear (not measured it). My knee has a little on top as well. But if people can attack my work, then they're not really reading carefully enough, right? Look at my other restorations... I've sought out new parts to replace worn ones (not just "used" parts, but genuine N.O.S.) Why? Because I'll resent the damn machine if it's not accurate (just like you said). Even for a hobby guy like me.

I NEVER said I (wasn't) going to get things re-scraped? I even inquired about my spindle to see if I needed to get it re-ground and bearings fitted - by a professional.

So I just wish people would actually READ first, before they fire off some rude condescending comment.

 

[marrt]

Please keep the posts and pictures coming. "Clean up" vs. "Restoration" doesn't matter that much to me. I enjoy seeing being progress made ether way.

Heck, I'd like to take a scraping class myself and will some day. In the mean time, I stuggle all the time with "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough." Of course, I say this while I'm waiting six weeks to replace some out of stock angular contact bearings that are probably just fine. But, since I have it apart to fix something else....

 

[bradjacob]

Now that we've switched gears to scraping, I'd like to know what getting a saddle, knee and table scraped will cost?

The knee only needs it on top - the back (and column) still have 100% flaking...

Anyone had it done, or know a ball park figure?

 

[monkeyb0y]

Brad check with John Fahnestock (sidecar580 on PM). I bought my BP from him and he does really nice work and is very easy to work with. His shop is somewhere in MA I think. Not sure how far that is from you but I'm sure he'd quote you a fair price.

Kevin

BTW the 10L is very happy in its new home. Nice work.

 

[bradjacob]

Brad check with John Fahnestock (sidecar580 on PM). I bought my BP from him and he does really nice work and is very easy to work with. His shop is somewhere in MA I think. Not sure how far that is from you but I'm sure he'd quote you a fair price.

Kevin

BTW the 10L is very happy in its new home. Nice work.

Send me some pictures of it in it's new home!

 

[sophijo]

For future reference. Sorry I'm late to this party! You can degrease, loosen paint and derust with a mixture of feed grade molasses and water 1::9. Check out You Tube "molasses derusting" and you'll find some Aussies using it for auto body panels. Cheap and non-toxic. I used it on my mill: works!

 

[LIR&F]

Hi a recent over the phone quote to scrape xyz and re machine table was 3500 (ouch)

Now that we've switched gears to scraping, I'd like to know what getting a saddle, knee and table scraped will cost?

The knee only needs it on top - the back (and column) still have 100% flaking...

Anyone had it done, or know a ball park figure?

 

[sophijo]

I see you have that spindle assembly soaking. Here's a good tip I got from my son. I believe that assembly will just fit inside a section of sched 40 CPVC 3"...about 3 x the length of the spindle. Cap one end and fill 3/4s with your version of Ed's Red. Run a line through the spindle out one end and tie it off with a "stop" so it can't be pulled through. Lower the assembly into the pipe and the lube/solvent will be forced up through the assembly and vice-versa when you pull it up. I just left it in there for a few days, cycled it, and cleaned it out pretty good.

 

[sophijo]

Elitism and lycra and geezers

I'm thinking that it's not really elitism. Us Geezers just tend to be "pissed off" at having missed out on all the 20 year olds in Lycra tights. I'm gonna find whoever invented Lycra and give him some money.

 

[Sarpen]

Brad

I'm also following your progress with great interest and love to see the stage photographs. So thankyou for taking the time to document your work.

Steve

 

[bradjacob]

Scraping Update

I got a quote for scraping the top of the knee, saddle and Table-bottom.... $1,600
So it goes without saying, that I'll (not) be getting the scraping done - as I just don't have the cash for that right now... I can always GET it done, when I get some money saved.
That being said, here is what the ways look like. Maybe I might not be in 'that' bad of shape? All comments and suggestions are always welcome.

Here is the (table-side) of the SADDLE - along with some closeups of the ways.

Here is the (knee-side) of the SADDLE - along with some closeups of the ways.

 

[bradjacob]

Knee & Column

Here is the TOP of the knee fully (along with some closeups of the ways)

Here is the BACK of the knee fully (note the ways have nearly all the flaking)

Here is the COLUMN (note the ways are perfect - all flaking is present)

 

[bradjacob]

Table Closeups

Here is the TABLE - (along with some closeups)

 

[ScubaSteve]

I can see why scraping might be so expensive....it requires a lot of time and labor. But what about grinding? They just level everything up and run it through the grinder. Is that any cheaper?

If worst comes to worst, why don't you scrape it yourself? The process doesn't seem that complicated once you get the hang of it. You might need to invest some money up front for a large straight edge and/or surface plate, but nothing like $1600.

 

[bradjacob]

Quick update.

I've done three South Bends so far - all to pristine condition and accuracy. But I can tell you that a Bridgeport is a whole different animal altogether. Complete with it's own set of challenges and things to look out for. Now that I have this machine fully disassembled, I can see all the things one must look out for - when buying an old, used mill... Despite my mechanical skills and previous restorations, I bought this machine with (very limited) knowledge. So it was a bit of a gamble... I did (however) know, that my intended use was hobby work. And the price as damn good! Fortunately, I haven't spent all that much fixing it up aside from cleaning/de-rusting supplies and a few replacement parts.

Now - For scraping: I got a quote from John in New England. His price was very fair but out of my budget, unfortunately. It would be more than twice what I paid for the machine. John is a real nice guy and we even got to talking. His opinion was that for ("my" use), scraping wasn't exactly a "deal-breaker". We both agreed that to fully understand how much - or even (if) scraping was required, I'd need to measure the accuracy when it's back together (something I wasnt able to do when I first bought it). If it turns out bad enough - and the work I'm doing requires a higher degree of accuracy, then hopefully I can make some money with it - and have him scrape it.

Moving on... The past couple weeks, I've been going over the machine with a fine tooth comb. The column & knee's (inner dovetails) are in great shape - with nearly 100% of the flaking still perfectly in tact. All the internal parts are nearly perfect as well (surprisingly). Every spring is strong, the clutch gears are not worn, brake ring is still thick and all bearings are super tight and un-damaged. I haven't found one single (missing or damaged) gear tooth. My spindle appears to be in really nice shape (although I'll need to measure it's runout once the head is reassembled). This is one of those things I didn't know to check upon purchase. My lead screw and cross feed screws are worn out, as expected. I have a brand new DRO in the box, but I'm still going to buy new X & Y lead screws (along with new nuts). This way, all the accuracy will be returned to the lead screws.

Right now, every part has been de-greased & buffed. Ball cranks and pulley housing still need to be polished. Also, I plan to "re-blacken" all the black-oxidized parts. I ordered the kit from http://www.caswellplating.com.

Some pictures to follow soon...