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Brother Speedio Purchase Questions

If you don't mind sharing. What size compressor do you have installed?
A Cambell Hausfeld 4hp 2 stage 80 gallon tank that I have slowed down about 40% to reduce the noise, as well as a homemade intake muffler. It now pumps about 10 cfm which is what my Kitamura uses as well as the Brother 27k.

If you are doing a lot of surfacing, or pretty much running aluminum (especially smaller tools) then 27K. Otherwise 16BBT.. From what I understand the bearings in the BBT are larger and able to take more of a hit without damage.
If you're doing a lot of surfacing I don't think you want a greased spindle and you will want a chiller, as well as a better control for that type of work. My 2001 Kitamura will run circles around my new Brother when running high-accuracy cutter paths, as in many times faster. My Brother sales/machine tech told me the only difference between the 16k standard and BBT spindles was the dual-face contact, including drawbar force. I do know from the outside the two spindles look identical and have the same size bearings as I watched the tech swap the standard spindle that came with the machine for the dual contact I upgraded to. Keep in mind the bore in the head is what the bearings slide into so no chance they are bigger, unless the spindle shaft is smaller. So this would indicate that ALL Speedios have the same outside diameter spindle bearings, even the high torque spindles. I sure wish these spindle details were not the national security secret that Brother makes them out to be as all we hear is bullshit gossip.
 
My S500 spindle air purge cycles a 5hp 80 gallon compressor every 17 minutes!
Calculated this cost in the electric bill per year?
How much is a spindle rebuild every four years vs eight to ten years?
IMO one minute is no where near long enough. Coolant will still be drooling off the upside stuff.
My compressors cycle every 17 minutes with all the machines shut down due to air leaks in all the piping and joints. Should fix that.
Bob
 
A Cambell Hausfeld 4hp 2 stage 80 gallon tank that I have slowed down about 40% to reduce the noise, as well as a homemade intake muffler. It now pumps about 10 cfm which is what my Kitamura uses as well as the Brother 27k.


If you're doing a lot of surfacing I don't think you want a greased spindle and you will want a chiller, as well as a better control for that type of work. My 2001 Kitamura will run circles around my new Brother when running high-accuracy cutter paths, as in many times faster. My Brother sales/machine tech told me the only difference between the 16k standard and BBT spindles was the dual-face contact, including drawbar force. I do know from the outside the two spindles look identical and have the same size bearings as I watched the tech swap the standard spindle that came with the machine for the dual contact I upgraded to. Keep in mind the bore in the head is what the bearings slide into so no chance they are bigger, unless the spindle shaft is smaller. So this would indicate that ALL Speedios have the same outside diameter spindle bearings, even the high torque spindles. I sure wish these spindle details were not the national security secret that Brother makes them out to be as all we hear is bullshit gossip.
Just out of curiosity, who is your tech? It's my understanding the 27K has ceramic bearings. I might be wrong about the BBT bearings, but I'm pretty sure I was told the Hi-torque has larger bearings. The outer race and spindle housing could be thinner wall, allowing a larger bearing.
I wish we could be absolutle sure about some of this as well. Supposedly some tech told a customer that the Brother isn't meant to run wide open for more then a few minutes. I on the other hand, was told go for it. Don't crash the spindle, be smart about machining, but no limits on running the thing wide open. Brother was made for 7/24. I've never had an issue. I was told by the Haas rep to NOT run 100 percent.
ETA: the 16 and 27 are ceramic bearings. The housings are different for the HT and the 27K - so there are 3 sizes of spindle housings.
 
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Just out of curiosity, who is your tech? It's my understanding the 27K has ceramic bearings. I might be wrong about the BBT bearings, but I'm pretty sure I was told the Hi-torque has larger bearings. The outer race and spindle housing could be thinner wall, allowing a larger bearing.
I wish we could be absolutle sure about some of this as well. Supposedly some tech told a customer that the Brother isn't meant to run wide open for more then a few minutes. I on the other hand, was told go for it. Don't crash the spindle, be smart about machining, but no limits on running the thing wide open. Brother was made for 7/24. I've never had an issue. I was told by the Haas rep to NOT run 100 percent.
Peter was my sales/tech but left sales right after my install. The spindle housing is the head, a Brother spindle lacks the housing like a typical cartridge spindle. I "think" any Brother spindle faster than 10k has ceramic bearings, for 27k they are an absolute must. I know air/oil lubrication is superior to grease for long sustained high-speed spindles. Keep in mind Brother doesn't use chillers and the 27k is an air-cooled spindle, hence the high air usage. When I broke my spindles in the cycle is 2 hours total and the head warmed up 30-35F in the process, with most of the temp rise above 8k at the end. While the algorithm may compensate for growth it isn't good for longevity. Long high speed cycles really do want a chiller. One of the Brother reps here said that shop temps were very influential on spindle life, and especially so for the 27k spindles. Hot shops are bad for your high speed spindle, as well as everything else. Brother had done some extensive testing on this and documented it well.

Brothers are maniacally engineered and built for PRODUCTION, with zero compromises to that end. It is not designed to do long full speed cycles with one tool, to do so would be a compromise for what it is designed to do. This is in line with all of the other complaints we hear about Brothers. One of the Brother reps here did say that if you are going to run a single tool for a long time then you should break the cycle up and stop the spindle at intervals to allow the grease to flow back into the races.

Brother Frank, any chance you could give some hard facts here???

1) Do the different spindles use different size bearings?
2) Is the drawbar tension different between taper and dual contact spindles?
3) When are the bearings ceramic?
4) What is a typical maximum run time at full speed for the different spindles? And perhaps why?
 
Peter was my sales/tech but left sales right after my install. The spindle housing is the head, a Brother spindle lacks the housing like a typical cartridge spindle. I "think" any Brother spindle faster than 10k has ceramic bearings, for 27k they are an absolute must. I know air/oil lubrication is superior to grease for long sustained high-speed spindles. Keep in mind Brother doesn't use chillers and the 27k is an air-cooled spindle, hence the high air usage. When I broke my spindles in the cycle is 2 hours total and the head warmed up 30-35F in the process, with most of the temp rise above 8k at the end. While the algorithm may compensate for growth it isn't good for longevity. Long high speed cycles really do want a chiller. One of the Brother reps here said that shop temps were very influential on spindle life, and especially so for the 27k spindles. Hot shops are bad for your high speed spindle, as well as everything else. Brother had done some extensive testing on this and documented it well.

Brothers are maniacally engineered and built for PRODUCTION, with zero compromises to that end. It is not designed to do long full speed cycles with one tool, to do so would be a compromise for what it is designed to do. This is in line with all of the other complaints we hear about Brothers. One of the Brother reps here did say that if you are going to run a single tool for a long time then you should break the cycle up and stop the spindle at intervals to allow the grease to flow back into the races.

Brother Frank, any chance you could give some hard facts here???

1) Do the different spindles use different size bearings?
2) Is the drawbar tension different between taper and dual contact spindles?
3) When are the bearings ceramic?
4) What is a typical maximum run time at full speed for the different spindles? And perhaps why?
The data I supplied was right after speaking with Frank.
Drawbar force is higher for HT sprindle.
3 different size bearings. Std 10K and 16K are one size, HT is another size, and 27K another size. Three different spindle housings.
16K and 27K ceramic.
Of course I can make a mistake, but I'm sure Frank will be along at some point.
ETA: BTW, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "This is in line with all of the other complaints we hear about Brothers." Most of kvetching I see here is people that don't own one, never ran one, don't understand how productive they are, and have a psychological need to justify their ownership of whatever mill they are running. There are terms for that..... :)
 
The data I supplied was right after speaking with Frank.
Drawbar force is higher for HT sprindle.
3 different size bearings. Std 10K and 16K are one size, HT is another size, and 27K another size. Three different spindle housings.
16K and 27K ceramic.
Of course I can make a mistake, but I'm sure Frank will be along at some point.

I wonder how they do different size bearings in the same bore od? Are there different head castings?
Yes, that's what I said. Different housings.
 
When only running my Brother I have no idea how often my compressor cycles as it is so unfrequent, maybe every 90 minutes? I asked Yamazen about the mod and was told they would not do it and if I did it would void the warranty. Now that I have the machine and see how much air it uses I haven't given it a second thought as it's not noticeable.
I think I am missing something. Do the R machines use less air than the S machines? I am confused how you were able to go from 11 minutes cycle to 90 minutes. Or maybe you have an R650 and a S700 with 27K and the 11 minutes you were seeing was with both machines running?
 
I think I am missing something. Do the R machines use less air than the S machines? I am confused how you were able to go from 11 minutes cycle to 90 minutes. Or maybe you have an R650 and a S700 with 27K and the 11 minutes you were seeing was with both machines running?
Kitamura with an air/oil lubricated spindle and a Brother R650 with a 16k spindle. The Kitamura uses the same amount of air as the Brother 27k spindle.

eaglemike, sorry I missed the housings part.
 
Calculated this cost in the electric bill per year?
How much is a spindle rebuild every four years vs eight to ten years?
IMO one minute is no where near long enough. Coolant will still be drooling off the upside stuff.
My compressors cycle every 17 minutes with all the machines shut down due to air leaks in all the piping and joints. Should fix that.
Bob
Just did back of envelope. Couple hundred bucks a year, up to 7k cycles of compressor per year. Those numbers are if you plugged it in and just let is sit there all day. So maybe realistically it's only 1k extra cycles per year on your compressor. In a small shop, it's noticeable and annoying. It's more about that than money.

My old X1 had air blast on tool change. The new Xd1 has coolant flush on tool change, so maybe a longer delay is in order. Gravity should be your friend here when the flood is off though.

I thought ceramic bearing were noly the 27k model.
 
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It has been a while since I have had the spindles in my hands, but as I recall the 10K High Torque has 90mm steel bearings, the 10k standard has 75mm steel, the 16k has 75mm ceramic and the 27K has 55mm ceramic. Three different spindle casting/housings. That is why we can swap a standard 10k and 16k. You cannot swap a 27K or a 10K High Torque into anything else. The draw bar force was about 150 pounds higher on BBT versus non BBT.
In regards to run time, the 27K is a sealed grease spindle. We have a user here with five 27K machines running 140 hours per week at 25k rpm with tiny engraver type tools holding a couple of tenths in Z. I know he has about 25,000 hours on one and several over 20,000 hours.
Brother and their elf'n magic at it again...
 
I will be purchasing an S700 in the near future. I am limited in space, power, and height with my current shop. I have looked at other machines, but I believe the Speedio is the best solution given my constraints. I have a couple options, there is a used 27K BT30 S700X2 machine that is very lightly used (a couple hundred cutting hours), and I know the history on it. I can get this machine for about $20k less than a similarly optioned S700xd1 16k dual contact spindle. Aside from the BBT spindle, there are some control upgrades that I can appreciate. Ethernet/IP/OPC UA comms for future automation. More descriptive program names. Not sure how I feel about the touch screen...

The big thing is that I have read a lot of threads about the versatility of the 16K spindle on the forums especially w/ Big Plus. I don't have any work that demands the 27K spindle, but I have read that 16K and the 27K spindle have the same torque above 5K rpm and the 27K actually has more torque above 10K rpm. I keep going back and forth. With the $20K savings, I could put the money towards a 4th axis or some really nice tooling/fixturing, however the newer machine with 16K BBT is tempting as well.

I appreciate any feedback.
ive got 3 brothers (700x1,1000,450x1) all 16k bbt. 2 run 24x5 with 6061 at 15k-16k all tools and robot loading.

replacement spindle cost increase 27k vs 16k? my guess 27k more $$
how would they take a bump vs 16k? my guess 27 more fragile
i also like the material versatility of 16k if i have to repurpose as my contracts are not long term. my parts are small mill only (no drill or taps) (.25"x.25"x1.2") with short cycle times, short cut lengths - i would not get to faster ipm.
tooling : at 16k im in techniks/maritool er16 or er32. my high dollar nikken sk stuff needed a new collet if a tool broke - it would damage the collets id at entrance. at 27k my lower dollar techniks er16/32 stuff might be good enough.
 
Just re the tooling point. Have a look at heat shrink tooling. At least here in the UK I can pickup a nice dual contact shrink holder for about the same money as a dual contact ER holder. Runout is way better, although convenience to swap tools is worse... I mainly use them for standard tools that don't change frequently.

I'm not using enough tools to justify a proper machine yet, so I'm swapping tools one of those cheapo machines they sell to garages to loosen stuck bolts. About $150 and works really nicely for changing 1-2 tools at a time (would be a pain for swapping 10 tools a day mind...)

Re the OPs question. I think we've spoken already via Instagram? I'm a 16k Speedio owner.
 
ive got 3 brothers (700x1,1000,450x1) all 16k bbt. 2 run 24x5 with 6061 at 15k-16k all tools and robot loading.

replacement spindle cost increase 27k vs 16k? my guess 27k more $$
how would they take a bump vs 16k? my guess 27 more fragile
i also like the material versatility of 16k if i have to repurpose as my contracts are not long term. my parts are small mill only (no drill or taps) (.25"x.25"x1.2") with short cycle times, short cut lengths - i would not get to faster ipm.
tooling : at 16k im in techniks/maritool er16 or er32. my high dollar nikken sk stuff needed a new collet if a tool broke - it would damage the collets id at entrance. at 27k my lower dollar techniks er16/32 stuff might be good enough.
27k BBT is 9k plus install plus shipping

I don't wanna talk about it
 
My compressors cycle every 17 minutes with all the machines shut down due to air leaks in all the piping and joints. Should fix that.
I spent almost the entire year of 1994 training at Honda's huge factory in Suzuka, Japan. One of the things that stood out---and I will always remember, is how there were no air leaks anywhere in the multi-building facility.

The Japanese are insanely fastidious in a lot of different ways!

ToolCat
 
Thanks for all the information. Very helpful. I am leaning heavily toward the 16K BBT S700xd1. Now I have to see if I have room for the 28-tool turret in my 8ft ceiling garage...
 
Just re the tooling point. Have a look at heat shrink tooling. At least here in the UK I can pickup a nice dual contact shrink holder for about the same money as a dual contact ER holder. Runout is way better, although convenience to swap tools is worse... I mainly use them for standard tools that don't change frequently.

I'm not using enough tools to justify a proper machine yet, so I'm swapping tools one of those cheapo machines they sell to garages to loosen stuck bolts. About $150 and works really nicely for changing 1-2 tools at a time (would be a pain for swapping 10 tools a day mind...)

Re the OPs question. I think we've spoken already via Instagram? I'm a 16k Speedio owner.
I don't go on Instagram that often, but it sounds like there are a fair amount of Speedio users making content on the platform. Any channels you recommend?
 
27k BBT is 9k plus install plus shipping

I don't wanna talk about it
Guy across the lot from me has a few Haas and some Okuma. He had a spindle go down on an Okuma. I don't remember the exact price, but it was way higher than that and several weeks.. That's what I love about my Brother machines. Super reliable, easy to get parts.
 
Guy across the lot from me has a few Haas and some Okuma. He had a spindle go down on an Okuma. I don't remember the exact price, but it was way higher than that and several weeks.. That's what I love about my Brother machines. Super reliable, easy to get parts.
I know a guy here who had a spindle go bad in okuma horizontal. $50k when all said and done. I recommend getting a quote on a replacement spindle up front.

A few things about compressed air…
It’s generally the most costly utility so leaks should be addressed. But, the really nice thing about it is that it doesn’t leak all over the floor. An old boss of mine pointed out the fact that compressors are about 4cfm/hp. I’ve seen this to be true for compressors from 5hp to 200hp recip or screw.
 
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I know a guy here who had a spindle go bad in okuma horizontal. $50k when all said and done. I recommend getting a quote on a replacement spindle up front.

A few things about compressed air…
It’s generally the most costly utility so leaks should be addressed. But, the really nice thing about it is that it doesn’t leak all over the floor. An old boss of mine pointed out the fact that compressors are about 4cfm/hp. I’ve seen this to be true for compressors from 5hp to 200hp recip or screw.

"It’s generally the most costly utility". 1000% true. Air leaks should be fixed and treated as serious as oil and coolant leaks. Gets very costly over time !!
 








 
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