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Brother Speedio Spindle Rattle

Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
Hi Everyone,

Our newest S700 High-Torque Speedio (less than two years old) all of a sudden started making a rattling/tapping noise reminiscent of baseball cards in bicycle wheel spokes. The faster the spindle rotated the louder the noise would get. I tried rotating the spindle by hand and it moved freely until it got stuck in the same spot when rotating it both CW and CCW. M3 in MDI showed no load on the spindle. Yamazen had no interest in trying to repair it and just wanted to replace the spindle, which is what we did and everything is running fine now. I would like to get this thing repaired to keep as a back up. However, with it out of the machine it spins just fine (from what I can tell.) :scratchchin: This small silver ring the red arrow is pointing to in the pic wiggles a little bit and if I hold it I then feel resistance when spinning the rest of the bearing.

Is it possible for it to rotate freely when it is out of the machine but lock up once it is installed? I would hate for a repair guy to be like, "hmmm, looks okay to me!" but at the same time I assume they would probably do more to diagnose than just spin it by hand.

Has anyone had this problem with a young Speedio before? What would cause a bearing to go like that? I'm not sure we have ever had to have a spindle replaced for rattly bearings before...

Thank you!

IMG_9701.jpg
 

DavidScott

Titanium
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
That ring is the spindle spacer. My first thought is the labyrinth seal. Did they use the old one when replacing the spindle?
 
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Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
That ring is the spindle spacer. My first thought is the labyrinth seal. Did they use the old one when replacing the spindle?
You think a broken labyrinth seal is the problem, as in the "spindle" might be fine? I was out when Yamazen came so I'm not sure if they used the old one or not. There's a couple parts left in the box, but I don't what a labyrinth seal looks like....wait, are you Johnson Rod-ing me?? :)

FTExDUAUsAUe8S2.jpg
 

mottrhed

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Location
nh
That "spacer" will be captured when the bearings are, and therefore not move or rattle once all together. Sounds like a bearing issue, possibly a broken ball cage. Either way you know the problem was the spindle since it was solved by replacement. I see these frequently, they are very simple, rebuildable spindles, you could have it rebuilt for a spare on the shelf.
 

Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
We've used Motor City in the past. Their website says they service Brother spindles...does anyone else have any specific recommendations? Thanks!
 

mottrhed

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Location
nh
Im pretty biased so I wont answer directly. Just make sure whoever you choose has the equipment to do the job correctly, drawbar force gauges, test bars, air gauging, etc etc to confirm they can "prove" their quality. If you have any specific questions feel free to PM me, happy to help any way I can.
 

DavidScott

Titanium
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
It might be debris wedged/welded in the labyrinth seal, there are some pretty tight clearances and thin sections in there. Since the spindle got tight in the same spot that makes me think the problem is keyed to the spindle, labyrinth seal, which a ball cage isn't. I think Yamazen replaces the labyrinth seals by default when they swap spindles. In the future, it is pretty easy to remove them in place. Install ALL parts as they were removed to maintain ballance and as long as you keep things clean there is no risk in doing so to inspect.

For a rebuild, I would send it to Setco. I was totally impressed with the L.A. location when they rebuilt my Kitamura spindle. Not only their work but the communication as well.
 
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BROTHERFRANK

Stainless
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Location
SoCal
Just saw this. My money is on there is nothing wrong with the spindle. Those high torque spindles are pretty bullet proof. I hope you still have the lower spacer that came out with the original spindle. Usually about 3 mm thick. This one is custom for the spindle and needs to stay with it to establish proper bearing preload. The new spindle came with it's own custom bottom spacer. The noise I believe was one of the balancing weights (set screws in the coupling between motor and spindle) came loose and started hitting the casting. I have seen this once or twice. The high torques have a massive coupling and there is very little clearance between it and the casting. The weights (set screws) are typically installed with thread locker.
 

mottrhed

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Location
nh
Just saw this. My money is on there is nothing wrong with the spindle. Those high torque spindles are pretty bullet proof. I hope you still have the lower spacer that came out with the original spindle. Usually about 3 mm thick. This one is custom for the spindle and needs to stay with it to establish proper bearing preload. The new spindle came with it's own custom bottom spacer. The noise I believe was one of the balancing weights (set screws in the coupling between motor and spindle) came loose and started hitting the casting. I have seen this once or twice. The high torques have a massive coupling and there is very little clearance between it and the casting. The weights (set screws) are typically installed with thread locker.
The spacer you reference doesn't have an impact on bearing preload, only outer race "capture". As that spindle sits-outside the machine-the bearings are still at their predetermined preload (assuming they are still in good shape), because the shaft nut is what is holding them. The spacer you are talking about is important, and needs to be adjusted (ground) to a particular dimension to keep the outer races held against the housing shoulder. Otherwise the whole spindle-with preloaded bearings- will be able to shift up and down in the bore. People confuse this frequently so I wanted to explain.

This is just like any other spindle, they can and do fail, for any number of reasons (crash, contamination, drawbar issues, etc etc), I see them pretty frequently. Only way to know its condition for sure is to have it evaluated.
 

Comatose

Titanium
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Location
Akron, OH
I had something rally similar happen to one of mine. Turned out to be one of the screws in the coupling nut had worked its way loose. Nothing to do with the spindle at all.

Been running fine ever since.
 

Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
That "spacer" will be captured when the bearings are, and therefore not move or rattle once all together. Sounds like a bearing issue, possibly a broken ball cage. Either way you know the problem was the spindle since it was solved by replacement. I see these frequently, they are very simple, rebuildable spindles, you could have it rebuilt for a spare on the shelf.
Do you find it strange that is was hanging up when in the machine but spins freely now that it is out?
 

Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
Just saw this. My money is on there is nothing wrong with the spindle. Those high torque spindles are pretty bullet proof. I hope you still have the lower spacer that came out with the original spindle. Usually about 3 mm thick. This one is custom for the spindle and needs to stay with it to establish proper bearing preload. The new spindle came with it's own custom bottom spacer. The noise I believe was one of the balancing weights (set screws in the coupling between motor and spindle) came loose and started hitting the casting. I have seen this once or twice. The high torques have a massive coupling and there is very little clearance between it and the casting. The weights (set screws) are typically installed with thread locker.
This is what was left over. Is the ring at the bottom left of the pic the "spacer" you speak of? Is there a drawing or diagram available that I can look at so I know what everyone is talking about? The spindle does spin freely outside of the machine, if that means anything?

Thank you!
IMG_8B99E7E9F44F-1.jpg
 

Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
I had something rally similar happen to one of mine. Turned out to be one of the screws in the coupling nut had worked its way loose. Nothing to do with the spindle at all.

Been running fine ever since.
Interesting. I have never taken one apart so I am woefully unfamiliar with the assembly. I'm trying to find a diagram so I can understand what everyone's talking about. Thanks!
 

Houndogforever

Hot Rolled
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Location
Boring
I replaced my spindle because I wacked it pretty good at about 2 years old. I then sent that spindle out to SETCO and they did a re-build which was about half the price of a new spindle. Mine is not HT, so your mileage may vary.
Luckily I haven't wacked it again so hard that it needs to be replaced, but I have a fully rebuilt spindle for my S70)X1, 16k, coolant thru, non-HT.
I will for sure let everyone know how it runs..... if / when I ever use it.
 

DavidScott

Titanium
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
16k has ceramic bearings while I think 10k has steel, so 10k should be less $$$$.

Here is a LINK to the coupling with technical info you can download. It looks like the top right coupling in the photo. There are holes around the circumference of both halves of the coupling that take the balancing screws. I don't know offhand which coupling it is but I have the tech sheet for SA2/ DA2 style couplings for my own records. After looking at the tech sheet I think type C SA2 is it.

I think that is the custom spacer for the spindle from what BrotherFrank said and the machine-specific one is on the top. Brother does have excellent PDF manuals that cover EVERYTHING about these machines, real icing on the cake so get them!
 
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BROTHERFRANK

Stainless
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Location
SoCal
Here is the Spindle Head from the parts list at the back of the Installation manual that comes with each machine. Item 39 is the access plate to the coupling. Need to lower Z down some to access it. Item #2 is the coupling. The small holes (6 equally spaced) around the circumference are the threaded holes for the 'weights'.

spindle head.JPG
 








 
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