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Brother Speedio Spindle Rattle

BROTHERFRANK

Stainless
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Location
SoCal
Do you find it strange that is was hanging up when in the machine but spins freely now that it is out?
When moving it by hand in the machine, you couldn't overcome the interference of the set screw hitting the casting. The spindle motor is 17 hp and just ripped right past that. This is assuming you had a set screw (balance weight) come loose. A distinct possibility...
 

Pete Deal

Stainless
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Location
Morgantown, WV
16k has ceramic bearings while I think 10k has steel, so 10k should be less $$$$.

Here is a LINK to the coupling with technical info you can download. It looks like the top right coupling in the photo. There are holes around the circumference of both halves of the coupling that take the balancing screws. I don't know offhand which coupling it is but I have the tech sheet for SA2/ DA2 style couplings for my own records. After looking at the tech sheet I think type C SA2 is it.

I think that is the custom spacer for the spindle from what BrotherFrank said and the machine-specific one is on the top. Brother does have excellent PDF manuals that cover EVERYTHING about these machines, real icing on the cake so get them!
I priced spindles when I bought my S1000. What I remember is that 10k vs 16k had little to do with price. CTS adds quite a bit.

I do wonder how they rebuild/test these spindles. I/m skeptical to tell the truth that it can be done correctly. They aren't cartridge spindles Pretty sure they don't preload until mounted so to test one you would have to know in pretty good detail the dimensions and tolerances of the housing.
 

Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
Here is the Spindle Head from the parts list at the back of the Installation manual that comes with each machine. Item 39 is the access plate to the coupling. Need to lower Z down some to access it. Item #2 is the coupling. The small holes (6 equally spaced) around the circumference are the threaded holes for the 'weights'.
Thanks, Frank! So in order for me to test the "weight (screw) came loose" theory should I be able to lower Z as needed, take the access cover off, and look at the heads of the weights (screws) to see if any of the heads are worn down?
 

mottrhed

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Location
nh
I priced spindles when I bought my S1000. What I remember is that 10k vs 16k had little to do with price. CTS adds quite a bit.

I do wonder how they rebuild/test these spindles. I/m skeptical to tell the truth that it can be done correctly. They aren't cartridge spindles Pretty sure they don't preload until mounted so to test one you would have to know in pretty good detail the dimensions and tolerances of the housing.
These are very simple in terms of spindles. Rebuilds are not a concern at all, many rebuilds are done this way, where you may not have the entire housing, or only the front housing etc. The only additional worry here is the competence of the installer as they have to set the bearing capture, not cock it while pushing it in, make sure there are not dings in the housing, make sure the housing is in tolerance, etc etc, vs with a complete spindle the rebuilder would be taking care of all that.

Again, mounting in the housing has virtually nothing to do with preload, the rebuilder would completely set the preload during assembly.
 

mottrhed

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Location
nh
Tapers absolutely should not be ground on the bearings, I dont know where that misconception started but its not right. In certain instances, or in a pinch, fine, but its certainly not ideal and primarily used to cover up other problems.

Break in, that probably depends on how the rebuilder is equipped. For example I had so many Chiron spindles (set up the same way-no housing) come through that I purchased the right housings so that we could test run and balance at speed. In that case its just like it would be in the machine, especially since all the rotating parts are supplied so you can balance the whole assembly . If a housing isnt available, it can be run on a balance machine, but it not really necessary. It can get broken in once installed in the machine, many spindles are rebuilt and installed/broken in this way, its really a non-issue. When preloaded correctly, greased correctly (even less an issue if oil mist/injection) and everything set up right, break in is very quick-sometimes not even really necessary. Plus these spindles are usually not supplied with ALL the rotating components so they cant be fully balanced until back in the machine anyway.
 

BugRobotics

Stainless
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Location
Denver, CO
Tapers absolutely should not be ground on the bearings, I dont know where that misconception started but its not right. In certain instances, or in a pinch, fine, but its certainly not ideal and primarily used to cover up other problems.

Is it just a situation where it's good enough to have the taper ground pre-assembly? I would assume you achieve better runout specs if the taper is ground in-situ but maybe the tolerance stack up is small enough that it doesn't matter (assuming all of the spindle components are in good condition)?

Are brand new spindle tapers ground after assembly?
 

DavidScott

Titanium
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
Ah....and this is something they would have done when putting the new spindle in?
My experience is with a 16k spindle but I assume the 10k is also balanced after installation. The procedure is once the spindle is installed all weights are removed before the first balancing run to determine where it needs weights added. Then add the weights, run the balance routine, and repeat until it is balanced. Then pull each screw/weight out, apply thread lock, and install. If you pull the access plate off the head you probably won't see what you are looking for. The most would be a mark on the coupling but I doubt there will be one, only on the head of the screw that was removed and tossed, if that is what the problem was. When the BBT upgrade was installed in my new machine I watched it all, plus read all information I could get on the subject.
 

mottrhed

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Location
nh
Is it just a situation where it's good enough to have the taper ground pre-assembly? I would assume you achieve better runout specs if the taper is ground in-situ but maybe the tolerance stack up is small enough that it doesn't matter (assuming all of the spindle components are in good condition)?

Are brand new spindle tapers ground after assembly?

We are pretty far off topic here, if OP wants this discussed elsewhere just speak up.

Its not a "good enough" before assembly, actually the opposite, its better in a sense. When done as a bare shaft it is concentric to the bearing journals, period. Once you add bearings, spacers, nuts, rotors, housings etc the tolerance stack up from all that -- if done not quite right -- can create taper runout. Now you go and grind the taper, sure it runs out good now, but you still have the misalignment between the front and rear bearings that was the root cause, (or whatever the cause was) all you did was hide it. Now are the bearings going to have a long prosperous life, no, but my taper runout looks great!!

When done right, taper is ground bare shaft to the right AT class--confirmed with air gauge, runs out about a micron +/-. If dual contact, that relationship is correct relative to the face. Test bar in the taper should be good as well and really confirms the results. Once the entire spindle is built, I expect to see that taper runout not move much, maybe a micron, This proves that all the other parts are right and the assembly is healthy. At this point, no grind is necessary because all the bearings are set right, no spacer issues etc etc. Test run and install.

Grinding in assembly is usually covering an issue elsewhere which still exits afterwards.

As with everything, there are sometimes exceptions. Ive had situations where sub 1/2 micron max TIR was required at the tooling taper after assembly, now you are getting to where the bearings are limiting factors so you must "cheat" and hit it after assembly. This is really air bearing territory, but a topic for another day.

I have never seen an oem grind in assembly. Think about it this way, next time it needs to be rebuilt, the taper would not run true to the journals and therefore must be ground again..every time.
 

BugRobotics

Stainless
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Location
Denver, CO
We are pretty far off topic here, if OP wants this discussed elsewhere just speak up.

Its not a "good enough" before assembly, actually the opposite, its better in a sense. When done as a bare shaft it is concentric to the bearing journals, period. Once you add bearings, spacers, nuts, rotors, housings etc the tolerance stack up from all that -- if done not quite right -- can create taper runout. Now you go and grind the taper, sure it runs out good now, but you still have the misalignment between the front and rear bearings that was the root cause, (or whatever the cause was) all you did was hide it. Now are the bearings going to have a long prosperous life, no, but my taper runout looks great!!

When done right, taper is ground bare shaft to the right AT class--confirmed with air gauge, runs out about a micron +/-. If dual contact, that relationship is correct relative to the face. Test bar in the taper should be good as well and really confirms the results. Once the entire spindle is built, I expect to see that taper runout not move much, maybe a micron, This proves that all the other parts are right and the assembly is healthy. At this point, no grind is necessary because all the bearings are set right, no spacer issues etc etc. Test run and install.

Grinding in assembly is usually covering an issue elsewhere which still exits afterwards.

As with everything, there are sometimes exceptions. Ive had situations where sub 1/2 micron max TIR was required at the tooling taper after assembly, now you are getting to where the bearings are limiting factors so you must "cheat" and hit it after assembly. This is really air bearing territory, but a topic for another day.

I have never seen an oem grind in assembly. Think about it this way, next time it needs to be rebuilt, the taper would not run true to the journals and therefore must be ground again..every time.
Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense. Regarding the taper being reground after rebuild...I was under the impression that would be done after rebuild. Good to know!
 

Pete Deal

Stainless
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Location
Morgantown, WV
These are very simple in terms of spindles. Rebuilds are not a concern at all, many rebuilds are done this way, where you may not have the entire housing, or only the front housing etc. The only additional worry here is the competence of the installer as they have to set the bearing capture, not cock it while pushing it in, make sure there are not dings in the housing, make sure the housing is in tolerance, etc etc, vs with a complete spindle the rebuilder would be taking care of all that.

Again, mounting in the housing has virtually nothing to do with preload, the rebuilder would completely set the preload during assembly.
Well, I've installed a new spindle on one of my Brother machines and I can tell you it's not in the install. They are all set to preload the bearings when you clamp them in with the spacers ground so the preload on the bearings is set by the length of the spindle assy. This is why BrotherFrank said to keep the 3mm spacer as that must be the thing that's preground so to load the bearings correctly.. Very simple operation loosen the coupling, take the bolts off the spindle nose, drop the old spindle, slide the new one in, bolt it in, clamp the coupling, balance. No adjustment relating to preload at install. As of a few years ago Yamazen would rent a balancer so that's how I balanced mine. Whole thing took me 2 hours. Half of that time was spent reading the manual.
 

mottrhed

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Location
nh
Well, I've installed a new spindle on one of my Brother machines and I can tell you it's not in the install. They are all set to preload the bearings when you clamp them in with the spacers ground so the preload on the bearings is set by the length of the spindle assy. This is why BrotherFrank said to keep the 3mm spacer as that must be the thing that's preground so to load the bearings correctly.. Very simple operation loosen the coupling, take the bolts off the spindle nose, drop the old spindle, slide the new one in, bolt it in, clamp the coupling, balance. No adjustment relating to preload at install. As of a few years ago Yamazen would rent a balancer so that's how I balanced mine. Whole thing took me 2 hours. Half of that time was spent reading the manual.

Sorry, you are not understanding what preload is, how it is achieved and what influences it. You were correct stating "no adjustment relating to preload at install", that is because preload was set by the oem or rebuilder. Nothing you do during install affects it in this case. The spacer in question could be left out of the assembly, the bearings would still be preloaded... Certainly the whole preloaded assembly could move because the outer races arent held in place in the housing--see "captured" Ive referenced multiple times here, but the bearings remain preloaded..

Again capture must be obtained during install, but preload should already be taken care of by the builder.
 

Pete Deal

Stainless
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Location
Morgantown, WV
Sorry, you are not understanding what preload is, how it is achieved and what influences it. You were correct stating "no adjustment relating to preload at install", that is because preload was set by the oem or rebuilder. Nothing you do during install affects it in this case. The spacer in question could be left out of the assembly, the bearings would still be preloaded... Certainly the whole preloaded assembly could move because the outer races arent held in place in the housing--see "captured" Ive referenced multiple times here, but the bearings remain preloaded..

Again capture must be obtained during install, but preload should already be taken care of by the builder.
Unless you install new bearings on the spindle.

 

Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
My experience is with a 16k spindle but I assume the 10k is also balanced after installation. The procedure is once the spindle is installed all weights are removed before the first balancing run to determine where it needs weights added. Then add the weights, run the balance routine, and repeat until it is balanced. Then pull each screw/weight out, apply thread lock, and install. If you pull the access plate off the head you probably won't see what you are looking for. The most would be a mark on the coupling but I doubt there will be one, only on the head of the screw that was removed and tossed, if that is what the problem was. When the BBT upgrade was installed in my new machine I watched it all, plus read all information I could get on the subject.
So is there an easy way for me to determine if the spindle is fine or do I need to send it out to someone to inspect so they can tell me if it is fine? Since it was hanging up in the machine and not now, is that a pretty strong case that the spindle is fine? Should I ask Yamazen to try reinstalling the old one and if it works ask for my money back on the new spindle and just pay for labor? What a waste to pay 6G's for a potentially loose set screw haha!
 

DavidScott

Titanium
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
So is there an easy way for me to determine if the spindle is fine or do I need to send it out to someone to inspect so they can tell me if it is fine? Since it was hanging up in the machine and not now, is that a pretty strong case that the spindle is fine? Should I ask Yamazen to try reinstalling the old one and if it works ask for my money back on the new spindle and just pay for labor? What a waste to pay 6G's for a potentially loose set screw haha!
In my shop I would consider that spindle good but it depends on how much you want to spend finding out, either by trying it when needed or sending it to a shop for inspection. I am guessing it would cost around $300- $500 to have it inspected. As for Yamazen they did say they don't diagnose spindle issues, they just replace them, which you agreed to. It may be overkill but it does guarantee it is fixed. Kudos to BROTHERFRANK for saying what he thinks could have been the problem, that will certainly stick in my memory, even though I have a smaller coupling so more clearance.
 








 
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