Brother Speedio tool fretting

[CarbideBob]

If you are not happy Frank will give your money back even if your spindle grind is poop or you put it in with 2 microns of smoke or dust.
That makes him a good guy.

 

[Bigtoy302]

If you are not happy Frank will give your money back even if your spindle grind is poop or you put it in with 2 microns of smoke or dust.
That makes him a good guy.

He is a good guy and gave me a refund on the bad parts but he wasn't interest in actually correcting the issue. So I went Nikken and still having issues LOL. I just can't win.

 

[CarbideBob]

He is a good guy and gave me a refund on the bad parts but he wasn't interest in actually correcting the issue. So I went Nikken and still having issues LOL. I just can't win.

There is a message there. Read it as you care to.

 

[Rick_H]

Easiest way to put this to rest? - Just buy a couple of Big kaiser holders and put them to use, see what you get, I am inclined to think the issue is not with the holder though like others but.....

We did decide to go for 'real' Big holders for roughing tools and face mill in our Robodrill and went with some centro-p stuff for drills, small endmills etc and the rest, saved us a big chunk of cash and no issues, been slowly adding more Big Kaiser stuff though.

We use the 'Mega E' chuck with 50mm gauge length for what we consider roughing, they have been perfect for us.

 

[mottrhed]

How so? If the non licensed holders are not ground to spec they can do what they're doing. These are making more face contact than taper. That's would mean it's a holder issue. If it was drawbar it would not have enough strength to pull the face all the way up. leaving a gap. That's not what's happening here. I could be totally wrong but that makes sense in my head. I have spoke with Brother(Yamazen) about this and that's what they think also.

You came here asking for advice, yet refuse to consider anything other than what you already diagnosed yourself in post 1. Quite a few of us are pointing you in the same direction, towards the solution, and even if it isnt, you will know exactly what is before spending money on tool holders you will likely be damaging.

Not being licensed does not necessarily mean not in spec. And multiple holders from multiple oems makes the odds more in my favor...
Whats the one constant in this, the spindle.

You are confusing the fretting symptom, you have taper contact, and very light face contact, fretting happens when there is light contact and movement.
How would you have light contact on the face, low drawbar force.
How would you have slight fretting in the taper, low drawbar force.
How would you have tool movement in the taper, low drawbar force.
Also if you just had face contact, nothing would be centering the tool, you would have excessive runout, imbalance, inconsistent sizing etc.

All the symptoms can be explained by low retention force, a taper issue or a cut that is too much for the tooling interface, but most likely a combination of all of the above.

The things you have convinced yourself that are facts, just arent.
Why do you think drawbar springs dont weaken/crack/seize and fail? You said you never heard of it, so it must be a fact.. wrong, I see it daily.
Why do you think a 2 year old spindle cant have issues? I see them every day.
Even if you cant get a retention force spec from the oem, there are standards for iso tapers 30, 40, 50, 60, hsk, sk, capto, km, etc that will tell you if you're in the ballpark.

 

[eaglemike]

I haven't seen if you torqued the collet - the number is fairly high for some.
If it was me, I'd try a sidelock. I don't like taking heavier cuts in an end mill using a collet. I started out that way, even using the SK16, but found that sidelocks worked better for me. Haven't seen anyone say to try that in this thread. It's a cheap try. Sorry if I missed it.

 

[Bigtoy302]

Just tried a different kind of holder. Tried a Lyndex ER25 DC with the same parameters and what do you know, No fretting. This confirms my suspicion that the Nikken holders are ground wrong. I just ordered a few Big Mega E chucks to replace those. I will report back again wen I get those.

I'm still going to make a drawbar tester and test that and a few other localish Speedios to compare.

 

[Wsurfer]

Man that sounds wierd. I'm running a standard S500 10k spindle. 1.1" deep, .11" stepover 219 IPM in 6061 with no issues. I only have Maritool holders.

I started with the 1/2 diamondback, but the widia is quieter

 

[BROTHERFRANK]

Just tried a different kind of holder. Tried a Lyndex ER25 DC with the same parameters and what do you know, No fretting. This confirms my suspicion that the Nikken holders are ground wrong. I just ordered a few Big Mega E chucks to replace those. I will report back again wen I get those.

I'm still going to make a drawbar tester and test that and a few other localish Speedios to compare.

Maritool offers a tester off the shelf:

BT30 Drawbar Force Test Gage - Made in the USA MariTool

www.maritool.com

 

[Bigtoy302]

Update on this problem. It was't the tools holders. It was a combo of a spindle that was crashed twice and running 45° roughers that were in the cut for 4-5min.

I replaced the spindle and bought BD Mega chucks. Still fretted a tiny bit. I've ran tens of thousands of parts taking big cut but all those were small where the tool was only in the cut no more than 30-40 seconds. Apparently you can't run a rougher in the cut that long lol.

I will no longer run the Diamondback in the Speedio unless their throttled waaayyyy back. Going to try some of those uber spendy Fraisa AX-FPS roughers. Coolant through and 30° helix. Probably get a a small BD Full cut to help out too.

The problem is all the work I've been doing lately is all way too big for a Speedio(12"x8"x 2.5" 6061), hoping to get a Genos M560 next year.

 

[eaglemike]

Did you ever try the sidelocks???? Mari has some short stuff, and it works very well. Several of us have posted about using these in various threads. Also what are your cutting parameters? In my Speedios I use a lower width of cut than in a 40 taper, but spin it up and run much higher feed rates. Zero Divide on here has some software that calculates deflection etc and it very handy. From your description of your parts and my experience I'm not seeing why you need a different machine.
ETA: As noted below, I had a typo. Originally posted Mori instead of Mari.

 

[Orange Vise]

+1 on the sidelocks.

I think he meant Mari(tool).

One thing that could be happening is the longer toolholder is deflecting and losing contact with the spindle taper. The stubby sidelocks prevent this.

The problem is all the work I've been doing lately is all way too big for a Speedio(12"x8"x 2.5" 6061), hoping to get a Genos M560 next year.

Consider a horizontal instead.

Chip evac on a vertical is just miserable in comparison.

 

[DavidScott]

Corncobs and the shortest gage length holders will fix your problem, but don't listen to us as you already know everything.

 

[bigjon61]

A Diamondback is absolutely not a rougher/finisher. Have you actually ran one recently? You cannot finish with them.

It's not the endmill, It's the holder. A freer cutting rougher would help but it's still the holder. I know roughers are trying to rip the tool out but these are not massive cuts.

What Garr? The ARC series? I have been told to try the Fraisa AX-FPS too. I like the Destiny stuff because they work good, big selection, easy to order and I can get it next day for a few dollars more. I'm running extended length neck downs on this job too (roughers and finishers). Getting all the right sizes I want in other brands may not be as easy.

I think Frank is wrong about spindles varying. They absolutely should not since MTB's have to be Licensed by Kaiser to make a Big Plus spindle so therefore they have the specs and gauges. He just saying that because he is too cheap to license. I have bought a bunch of DC stuff from him when I upgraded my spindle two years ago and he sent be a bunch of garbage. (bad threads, faces hard turned with chatter, not ground face ground like they should be, collets would not fit nuts etc.) He did refund me. I still buy stuff from him just not DC holders lol.

It's not drawbar force, spindle is only two years old. If it was weak there would be NO face contact due to how the dual contact work. (Taper pulls in first deforms some then locks against the face).

I'm pretty sure it's a holder issue. I'm just going to bite the bullet and go Kaiser and Rego even know the gauges lengths are longer than I'm running. I really wish one of them made short sidelocks. Kasier are 2.5" GL.

For a guy who came here looking for advice, I would expect a little less fucking attitude in your response to the first guy to respond, and the first guy to respond with actual helpful advice and troubleshooting. You sir can go self fornicate.

 

[Bigtoy302]

Did you ever try the sidelocks???? Mari has some short stuff, and it works very well. Several of us have posted about using these in various threads. Also what are your cutting parameters? In my Speedios I use a lower width of cut than in a 40 taper, but spin it up and run much higher feed rates. Zero Divide on here has some software that calculates deflection etc and it very handy. From your description of your parts and my experience I'm not seeing why you need a different machine.
ETA: As noted below, I had a typo. Originally posted Mori instead of Mari.

No. Again, I won't buy any more Mari holders. They're not great quality plus they're too short for this job.

My cut that fretted the new spindle and new BD Mega chuck was .500" deep .150" stepover 16k rpm. Not a big cut but the problem again is I'm roughing for 4+ minutes straight and I think that's where the problems lie.

And yes my parts are way too big for a Speedio. 19.5 lbs removal per part. Yamazen said they wouldn't even sell me a machine if I told them that was the job I had planned lol. I need a 40x20 anyway. I need more X travel.

+1 on the sidelocks.

I think he meant Mari(tool).

One thing that could be happening is the longer toolholder is deflecting and losing contact with the spindle taper. The stubby sidelocks prevent this.


Consider a horizontal instead.

Chip evac on a vertical is just miserable in comparison.

See above. I run my facemill with a similar gauge length 3x harder and no fretting. I believe now it's just a high helix, low drawbar force problem. Brothers have pretty weak drawbars even Big plus. Then combined with long cut times so plenty of time to frett lol. I see people taking bigger cut in their speedios all the time but It's smallish parts and no fretting.

A horizontal would be nice for the right parts but I would need a new shop first. A need a 40x20. Having only a Brother in a job shop sucks.

I've been eyeballing the CMX 1100 V mainly for chip evac. I already fight chips all day in the Speedio. I don't want to deal with even more with a M560.

Corncobs and the shortest gage length holders will fix your problem, but don't listen to us as you already know everything.

See above. Again I'm getting rid of the Diamondbacks for heavy roughing and going with the Fraisa corn cob. Those Garr ones you run are still 45° helix. Yeah not trying those. You make baby parts where they work fine. I'm removing 19.5 lbs from one part. I really think it has a lot to do with time in cut if running hard. Again I've made tens of thousands of parts with very aggressive cuts and no fretting. Same recipe on larger parts and bam. Fretting.

 

[DavidScott]

Those Garr ones you run are still 45° helix. Yeah not trying those.

The helix doesn't matter on corncobs since they don't lift like finish or rougher/finisher mills, which is what the Frasia is if I am not mistaken. IF you ever try them play with increased chip loads, like up to .05" for 1/2" tools.

If your cutting correctly then time in the cut doesn't matter for the spindle/holder interface. I have been running 30 tapers for 26 years now, I know first hand about fretting, what causes it and how to avoid it.

With the right face mill the bulk of the force is into the spindle so you can't compare it to an end mill.



To everyone else, keep in mind that Bigtoy was having fretting problems with a 3/16" end mill too.

 

[MotoX]

The things you have convinced yourself that are facts, just arent.

What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so.
-Mark Twain

 

[tc1999]

Could it be the spindle? most likely not. I have never heard of Brother having a bad spindle that was new or losing retention.

We bought a brand new R450 16K dual contact 6 or so years ago with a bad spindle right out of the gate

 

[Bigtoy302]

The helix doesn't matter on corncobs since they don't lift like finish or rougher/finisher mills, which is what the Frasia is if I am not mistaken. IF you ever try them play with increased chip loads, like up to .05" for 1/2" tools.

What? If helix doesn't matter then why am I having issues?

The Fraisa is a corncob 30°.

Try .05" chip load? Whaaat?

If your cutting correctly then time in the cut doesn't matter for the spindle/holder interface. I have been running 30 tapers for 26 years now, I know first hand about fretting, what causes it and how to avoid it.

With the right face mill the bulk of the force is into the spindle so you can't compare it to an end mill.

I have a Korloy Pro X so more similar to a endmill forces.

To everyone else, keep in mind that Bigtoy was having fretting problems with a 3/16" end mill too.

Wrong, 3/8". They don't make a 3/16". I rough with a 3/8" and 1/2".

 

[Bigtoy302]

We bought a brand new R450 16K dual contact 6 or so years ago with a bad spindle right out of the gate

I guess anything is possible. What was bad? DC spindles are installed by Yamazen and one particular tech has messed a few up on install.