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Calculating Profit

Fal Grunt

Titanium
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Location
Medina OH
Lately I have been putting a lot of thought into profit. I've seen in countless threads folks mention 50% up to 500% profit on manufacturing products, or preforming customer work. Much of this I have written off to bravado and creative accounting. When I worked in tier 1 automotive, my work cell in the tool room, a Hermle and DMG 5 axis were billed at $28/hr. I consider this creative accounting.

I did some work a couple years ago for a company, providing some very tight tolerance tooling for them. They applauded the quality and after inspection told me they had never seen a nicer tool. However I never did another job for them. When I had the chance to ask I was told that their current supplier, who supplies tooling that rarely passes inspection, was a third of my price.

I was recently contacted by one of my vendors to let me know that it was time for annual inspection of my Rockwell testers. It's $540 for their visit which consists of two hours of driving, and half an hour to inspect and calibrate two testers. That's $216/hr for 2.5 hrs.

I trenched and installed a new service for a friend of mine to his shop last year. The CHEAPEST quote he received was $18,000. Materials cost $3,000, excavator rental was $850, and I logged 44 hrs to complete the job. If the business that quoted the job doubled the material costs and rental, $6,000 and $1,700, that would leave approximately $234/hr. It was also a 6 month wait if they did the work.

Another friend recently received a quote (after waiting 3 months for the quote) to install the boiler/heat pump for his in floor heat. The company is supposedly well known for this type of work and has an excellent reputation. They quoted $8,000 to $10,000 to install the heat pump, inspect and test the system. I have a nearly identical system, only with a water heater and not an electric boiler/heat pump. My plumber took 4 hours to install mine, with me helping to fill the system, bleeding the air, and testing it. He charged me $600. I can't make this quote work in any way shape or form, unless they threw some enormous number out because they simply do not want the job, and instead of telling him this, hopes he won't have them do the job.

Finally I will be spending this weekend replacing a service at the first friends house I mentioned. He called five electricians to quote the job, not calling any that quoted the shop service, three never showed up to their appointments, the fourth lectured him on how unsafe his house was, and refused to quote only replacing the service panel, and instead quoted a minimum of $20,000 to rewire the entire house, the fifth quoted $3,000 to replace the service panel. The service panel is a disaster for sure. Personally I believe his home inspector should be drug by his toes to the city square and publicly flogged with every local home inspector in attendance. The $3,000 is only labor, and I estimate that it will take me about 16 hours to complete. I had my own homes service replaced, as a home owner I am not allowed to replace a service, and my electrician and his helper took about 6 hours including some other work, and including the cost of the new service panel, and all new breakers, charged me $1200. That was in 2016. A licensed, skilled, full time electrician should be able to work much faster than me, and at 16 hours, that is $187/hr.

Back to the topic of profits. It is true that at $187/hr that electrician may still be losing money. The machine shop billing $35/hr may be extremely profitable. That is primarily a function of volume. Like the electrician, I am a one man shop, and bear all the costs. The machine shop billing $35/hr has a multitude of employees, at least two shifts, and several large contracts that are guaranteed work.

Job shop work, contract work, and product work of course all vary with a myriad of differences necessitating different profit schemes. My question to the many you, that own a wide variety of types of shops, servicing a multitude of industries, is how do you calculate and plan for profit?
 
I plan to profit as much as possible. I've found the last 2 years the sky can be the limit on what you can charge for many jobs and people won't bat an eye.

Are you supposed to feel bad if you quote a job high and get it?

In the past 2 years the only jobs I haven't got are ones I said no to.

I have the pole barn behind my house and I too can charge $300/hr for my time and people don't bat an eye right now.

Congress just gave the semiconductor industry 280,000,000,000 American dollars.

So what if I bid a job to take 1/9,000,000th of that per month for the next couple years?
 
I plan to profit as much as possible. I've found the last 2 years the sky can be the limit on what you can charge for many jobs and people won't bat an eye.

Are you supposed to feel bad if you quote a job high and get it?

In the past 2 years the only jobs I haven't got are ones I said no to.

I have the pole barn behind my house and I too can charge $300/hr for my time and people don't bat an eye right now.

Congress just gave the semiconductor industry 280,000,000,000 American dollars.

So what if I bid a job to take 1/9,000,000th of that per month for the next couple years?

I have also gotten every job I have quoted in the past 2-3 years. I was told once that I was too high and they could do it cheaper in house. I then crunched my numbers and quoted it the way it should have been done and was 15 cents cheaper on a .72 cent part that I quoted at .87 cents originally. I got the job after a revised quote was submitted.

Every plater and shop that I know of and or deal with is still hiring anyone they can and as busy as they can be.

Every so often I take on a $100 job and get $500 for it. I like the profit but it does take me away from the high production machines that make steady money.
 
Great topic, just getting started I’ve wondered a lot about this myself. It’s not very transparent how much the typical owner actually makes. I get that there’s a million variables. Right now I still have a day job and haven’t claimed a penny. So it looks like the shop is making money hand over fist. But I’m sure if I started pulling my current wage from it it wouldn’t look so great
 
I plan to profit as much as possible. I've found the last 2 years the sky can be the limit on what you can charge for many jobs and people won't bat an eye.

Are you supposed to feel bad if you quote a job high and get it?

In the past 2 years the only jobs I haven't got are ones I said no to.

I have the pole barn behind my house and I too can charge $300/hr for my time and people don't bat an eye right now.

Congress just gave the semiconductor industry 280,000,000,000 American dollars.

So what if I bid a job to take 1/9,000,000th of that per month for the next couple years?
My question is, how do you plan for profit? Clearly your profiting, but what was your plan to get there? I can't honestly imagine grossing $600k a year out of my pole building behind my house, but kudos to you for such a successful business!
All of my customers are OEMs. When I was further down the food chain I had are real problem making any profit.
Im not sure how I am supposed to interpret this? You had no plan for profit?
I have also gotten every job I have quoted in the past 2-3 years. I was told once that I was too high and they could do it cheaper in house. I then crunched my numbers and quoted it the way it should have been done and was 15 cents cheaper on a .72 cent part that I quoted at .87 cents originally. I got the job after a revised quote was submitted.
How did you calculate profit into your .72 cent part?
Great topic, just getting started I’ve wondered a lot about this myself. It’s not very transparent how much the typical owner actually makes. I get that there’s a million variables. Right now I still have a day job and haven’t claimed a penny. So it looks like the shop is making money hand over fist. But I’m sure if I started pulling my current wage from it it wouldn’t look so great
I am not really interested in finding out what the typical owner makes. From my experience in the machining world, there is no "typical" owner. Profit is not indicative of what the owner often makes. That in and of itself is what made me ask the question. Honestly I have found that most have no clue, and if there is money left over at the end of the year, they have "profited". I'm interested in how people plan for profit. When quoting a job, when planning a product, etc.

If I was making $600k a year like Garwood, I wouldn't worry about planning for profit, because with or without a plan, I would have already found it!
 
Gar didn't say that he found 2000 hours of that work...


You can plan 'till Tuesday, but unless you have control of what customers that you will have all year, what, and how many parts they will be requiring during that time, how much material is going to be for the year, etc...

... It's all a crap shoot as far as I'm concerned.

If you have time to dwell on this, then you must be slow?

This is the type of quagmire that self help speakers* find a foothold way to try to use circles and arrows and a graph on the back of each one, to dazzle the uninitiated into paying to listen to them, and likely some BS spreadsheet work that makes it seem that you got something for their time and "expertice".

Just git to work, try to figger as high'a price as you think that you can actually get the job (and NOT scare the customer away for the next time) and you will have made a buck this week. Next week will have to take care of it'self.

Matthew 6:34 is “Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”



* Take note that these people are just speakers. They don't actually doo or make anything.
If they have a history in business, it likely ended in failure, or else they'd still be there.
Not much, if any different than TV Evangelists, just lookin' to pick yuhr pocket...


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
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If I was making $600k a year like Garwood, I wouldn't worry about planning for profit, because with or without a plan, I would have already found it!

Well, there hasn't been a "was" yet. That whole $280,000,000,000 thing just happened and I got the PO and first wire transfer installment last Monday. I don't count my chickens before they hatch, but I did bid the job for a healthy profit.

And honestly, I didn't do any math at all. I knew what the budget for the project was and how critical the delivery was so I wrote up a fancy sounding proposal complete with bullet points and gave them a narrow window to accept it and send a wire.

I think there's both numbers and strategy in business. Sometimes you make the bare minimum you'll turn the machines on for. other times you shoot for the moon because you know how deep their pockets are and how bad they need their problem solved.

Could you define this "formula for profit" better? Like is it an actual mathematical formula you're asking for or is it more of a system /guidelines that people operate their businesses with?
 
And furthermore, no, I don't currently make anywhere near $600k/yr. I do however, make a good living and I don't see any reason whatsoever why I can't make $600k/yr from a backyard shop. I've collected just shy of $2000 in COD checks just this morning from 3 repair jobs I started yesterday and finished today. That work was billed at about $300/hr and nobody flinched at the numbers.

How much does Rush gear charge?

If I do the same work do I have to charge less because my shop is in my rural backyard?

I don't think I do. I think my problem solving skills are worth just as much as theirs are.
 
How did you calculate profit into your .72 cent part?
I just looked at the P.O. and it looks like I took a .72 cent quote and revised it down to .54 cents.


This is how a job like this one is broken down...

Job is 1215 steel. Normally would run on a machine that has a bunch of AL jobs on it that a few are new jobs with blanket deliveries. I also use different cutting oil on the AL than Steel, so changing the machine over from AL to steel for 3-4 days and then right back to AL would be time consuming and a pain in the ass. I quoted it with another $150 charge for the changeover and an extra $5/hr for the pain in the ass fee.

I always get every job from these guys and 1215 runs great on my machines as I can run carbide parting tools on these jobs and speed them up a few sets of gears. They told me they could do it cheaper in house and would just go that route.

I know they cannot do it cheaper than me on a 20hp Okuma lathe, vs my 5hp Brownie.

I then took the time to draw up a cam layout and get an exact cycle time. I then decided to pull a 1 time job off a machine that was tied up and use it for steels and 303 SS for now on as not to interfere with the AL jobs on the other machine.

My setup charge then went down by $150. I got rid of the extra $5/hr p.i.a. charge and went with a straight $50/hr rate. Customer supplies material.

So I get a job that can run unnattended at 22.5 seconds cycle time with no out of pocket expenses for $50/hr. Its a 2100 part job and I will get $1150 for it for 2.5 - 3 days of run time.

When I dont have to go into my pocket for any expenses and I know the job can run 6+ hours a day and get me $250-$300 a day, then I know I will profit.

I profit when I can run 2 machines and get a min of $500 a day. I can run 3-4 at the same time with the right jobs on them.

Materials and tooling is all paid for by the customer (one way or another). I get an hourly rate for machine time and it doesnt matter what other expenses there are as they get charged to the customer anyway.

At the end of the day, I get paid for machine time. The steel supplier gets paid to sell steel, the toolmaker gets paid to make tooling/cams. Plating and heat treatment are all added to the final bill and dont reflect what I get paid in the end.
 
A company in the construction trades whether small or large could be quoting extremely high because they are booked up and taking the job could require paying employees time and a half or double time. I have a machinery mover I use who has very reasonable rates, but even though a self employed one man band his rates go up on jobs that cause him not to get home for dinner. He won't pick up anything that would require an overnight stay for any amount of money.
 
The more your accountant charges,the less profit you make.......you pay taxes on profit.........so unless you are keen on supporting the waste of gubmint,you wont be making a profit.
 
For the typical small business, profit (or not) is the result of you and your employees efforts in the operation of your business. The thing to remember is that most small business owners don't know if they are going to make a profit over a given time period, especially in the formative, and any disruptive years.

Once established with a history of reliable customers and steady work, the business owner can then plan for profit...which is actually planning for growth. New machines, new hires, expansion, marketing...what will the business do in the coming years to grow sales, improve operations, and thus grow profit?

Large corporations have to forecast profits, and they do this based on history, and current information. It's not difficult for them because they have so much information, and lots of people working on it.

ToolCat
 
... It's all a crap shoot as far as I'm concerned.

If you have time to dwell on this, then you must be slow?

Just git to work, try to figger as high'a price as you think that you can actually get the job (and NOT scare the customer away for the next time) and you will have made a buck this week. Next week will have to take care of it'self.

Matthew 6:34 is “Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”
But surely you must factor profit into a job somehow? Either adding it to the costs of running your shop, some form of percentage markup, or other factor?

I'm in a weird spot right now, and I tend to think while working. I have a backlog of work, probably enough to last me near six months. But nothing new coming in. Some of the work is not appealing and won't be profitable. I have a rework that I have been putting off for sometime because the parts were in worse shape than the customer thought. It'll be 8 hours of work likely, for a $500 job. I've quoted a few jobs recently, and at a $75/hr shop rate, I haven't gotten those jobs.

Going much lower than $75/hr will mean I don't make a buck. If I don't make a buck this week, will next week take care of itself? Hence my thinking on the circumstances. Primarily I work for profit. If my business is not profitable, then I must consider changing the business. One aspect I am considering as a result is how other companies factor profit.

For example, I spoke with a shop that has a very high shop rate and does not charge for much of the time required to complete a job. I know one shop owner who has a very low shop rate, but charges for every minute involved with a job. The question though is really how to factor in profit. Shop rate itself matters only as cost inversely effects profit in regards to the limits a customer is willing to pay.
Well, there hasn't been a "was" yet. That whole $280,000,000,000 thing just happened and I got the PO and first wire transfer installment last Monday. I don't count my chickens before they hatch, but I did bid the job for a healthy profit.

And honestly, I didn't do any math at all. I knew what the budget for the project was and how critical the delivery was so I wrote up a fancy sounding proposal complete with bullet points and gave them a narrow window to accept it and send a wire.

I think there's both numbers and strategy in business. Sometimes you make the bare minimum you'll turn the machines on for. other times you shoot for the moon because you know how deep their pockets are and how bad they need their problem solved.

Could you define this "formula for profit" better? Like is it an actual mathematical formula you're asking for or is it more of a system /guidelines that people operate their businesses with?
I guess I took your statement saying you were charging $300/hr as a more literal statement of what you were currently doing. It didn't read like a statement of what you were hoping to happen.

I am thinking of system/guidelines that people use to operate their business with. I know a large business that uses a pretty simple and straight forward approach. They calculate their overhead costs, labor costs, material costs, and mark it up for a profit margin of 30%. It could be a $50,000 order, it could be a $5,000,000 order, it is all calculated the same. They are an OEM manufacturer and only sell to a retail network.

When I manufacture a new product, I try to look first at the market and what I could sell the product for, if there is competition what are they charging, then back figure to see if I can make any profit at my estimated target price. It is then a simple task to compare cost to manufacture and projected price and determine profit. This becomes complicated when you make a product that no one else makes. Estimating sales to break down costs becomes problematic.

For jobs where you know the quantity, and the time frame, it is a easier to calculate cost and profit. Some shops look at different factors, like you mentioned you look at "how deep their pockets are", some consider markets, some consider the user, some do not look at any outside factors. I had a friend that had a tool and die shop, that if you brought him a part, he didn't care if it was worth $5 or $5 million. His cost to do the work would be the same.
And furthermore, no, I don't currently make anywhere near $600k/yr. I do however, make a good living and I don't see any reason whatsoever why I can't make $600k/yr from a backyard shop. I've collected just shy of $2000 in COD checks just this morning from 3 repair jobs I started yesterday and finished today. That work was billed at about $300/hr and nobody flinched at the numbers.

How much does Rush gear charge?

If I do the same work do I have to charge less because my shop is in my rural backyard?

I don't think I do. I think my problem solving skills are worth just as much as theirs are.
I don't know what Rush gear is, but googling them gives a company that provides fast turn around gear manufacturing. I am sure they are not cheap.

No, not at all, why would you? I wasn't objecting nor vilifying your rates. My shop is in my backyard, I wish it was rural. I am asking about this topic because I don't want to work for $35/hr. I have been told I have excellent problem solving skills. I have solved problems that solved problems entire engineering departments with degreed engineers many of whom had 30+ years experience couldn't solve. I think my time is worth more than $50/hr. I've machined parts that a dozen other shops have refused to machine. I think my time is worth more than $75/hr.

I'd like to make a good living with my shop. However I am struggling to see how that is possible billing $35/hr. It isn't possible at $50/hr. $75/hr is a stretch, I'd have to bill 40 hrs of work every week. I don't know about you guys, but if I have 40 billable hours, I sure worked more than 40 hours. If you figure over head and labor costs at $60/hr, that would generate you $30,000 a year in profit. $30,000 a year to develop new products, purchase new equipment, and maintain existing equipment.
 
Every single shop is absolutely, totally different. based much on you, your skills, but also your machines, and your efficiency with them.
Then there is the work type, the volume, the machines needed, the tolerances......
lets get a little context from you, what main tools are in your shop?
What type of work do you get, go after, comes to you.
Example, mine:
I run a one man show shop also, my son out of high school 1.5 years ago started to help me.
We have 3 small VMC's and a small turning Center, we just received our 4th small VMC less then 2 month ago.
My shop rate is $75.00HR and has been since conception 4-5 years ago.
We will make just under $600k this year, we make between $40-50k per month, Low ball park net of $20-30k per month.
We do small-medium run production. usually 50-1000pc orders. and all reoccurring.
All prototyping parts we do results in an order with a week or 2 of proof of concept.
I offer mechanical engineering, and injection mold engineering and building, but don't do any Mold work really anymore.
Most our customers don't have engineers, so we do some of the engineering for them, mostly taking their assembly models and prints and redoing them with appropriate dimensions and tolerances.
Don't really make money from engineering, it just gets people in the door, because most shops don't do engineering, and or don't provide drawings, tolerances for parts, customers can take the
dimension drawing to another shop if they want, but only if they pay for them, if not they are only used in house by us, and are made and subdivided into operations prints.
 
How's the machine shop situation post-Covid where you are in Ohio? You guys have massive, long established shops of all specialty out there right? Did lots of them throw in the towel or is it still pretty much same-same.

I bring it up because geography could be playing a role in depressing what you can charge?

My impression is that the Pacific NW where I'm at, has a spattering of moderate sized shops, lots of semiconductor, aerospace, forestry and ag manufacturers here, but what we have pales in comparison to the manufacturing belt where you are. We did have a lot of small shops. I think a large percentage of those small shops have been wiped out by Covid. Either the older owners actually died from the illness or it just tightened the screws on everything early on to where they didn't care to keep grinding on. In my neck of the woods, they are all gone. No small machine shops. When overseas supply issues put domestic manufacturing into high gear shops out here got slammed and still are.
 
Every business is different. You’re going to have to figure out your own sweet spot.

I’m a 1 man shop and I’m usually running 2 or 3 cnc’s at a time. I quote at $60/hr but I’m generous with programming, set up and run times. I’m also faster than your average guy.

Like I said, my customers are OEMs. If I sub the work to you, you gotta be cheap enough to make me profit. Likewise if you sub it down to the next guy.

I am a relatively short run job shop. Most of my work is repeat stuff. Every time I get an order, the pc price includes 25% markup on material, a programming charge and any special tooling or fixtures. So basically the customer pays for programming every time. The markup on material covers any price increases in material so that I’m not constantly going back to the customer with price changes.

I still have some loser jobs where I take it in the shorts, but I also have some huge winners from the same customer so it all comes out in the wash.
 
A company in the construction trades whether small or large could be quoting extremely high because they are booked up and taking the job could require paying employees time and a half or double time. I have a machinery mover I use who has very reasonable rates, but even though a self employed one man band his rates go up on jobs that cause him not to get home for dinner. He won't pick up anything that would require an overnight stay for any amount of money.
That is true, same as many machine shops, the price goes up as the backlog does.
The more your accountant charges,the less profit you make.......you pay taxes on profit.........so unless you are keen on supporting the waste of gubmint,you wont be making a profit.
Your talking about an entirely separate issue.....
Every single shop is absolutely, totally different. based much on you, your skills, but also your machines, and your efficiency with them.
Absolutely.
Every single shop is absolutely, totally different. based much on you, your skills, but also your machines, and your efficiency with them.
Then there is the work type, the volume, the machines needed, the tolerances......
lets get a little context from you, what main tools are in your shop?
What type of work do you get, go after, comes to you.
My background is tool & die work, everything is one piece, a lot of prototyping and development, sometimes replacement for obsolete, etc, typically not what I would call tight tolerance, but things you have to pay attention to, I guess an average might be .0005". Occasional tight tolerance, +.0002 - nothing type work. Really depends on what industry it might be for.

Most all of my equipment is manual, milling, turning, grinding, with a Brother VMC. Heat treat, inspection, etc.

I run a one man show shop also, my son out of high school 1.5 years ago started to help me.
We have 3 small VMC's and a small turning Center, we just received our 4th small VMC less then 2 month ago.
My shop rate is $75.00HR and has been since conception 4-5 years ago.
We will make just under $600k this year, we make between $40-50k per month, Low ball park net of $20-30k per month.
We do small-medium run production. usually 50-1000pc orders. and all reoccurring.
All prototyping parts we do results in an order with a week or 2 of proof of concept.
I offer mechanical engineering, and injection mold engineering and building, but don't do any Mold work really anymore.
Most our customers don't have engineers, so we do some of the engineering for them, mostly taking their assembly models and prints and redoing them with appropriate dimensions and tolerances.
Don't really make money from engineering, it just gets people in the door, because most shops don't do engineering, and or don't provide drawings, tolerances for parts, customers can take the
dimension drawing to another shop if they want, but only if they pay for them, if not they are only used in house by us, and are made and subdivided into operations prints.
$40k gross in a month is 533 hours, with 3 machining centers is 177 hrs per month, per machine, or 44 hours a week per machine. That's incredible. How many hours do you work in a week?

Netting ~$20-30k from ~$40-50k is also incredible.

Unfortunately I am not an engineer so I cannot offer engineering services.
How's the machine shop situation post-Covid where you are in Ohio? You guys have massive, long established shops of all specialty out there right? Did lots of them throw in the towel or is it still pretty much same-same.

I bring it up because geography could be playing a role in depressing what you can charge?

My impression is that the Pacific NW where I'm at, has a spattering of moderate sized shops, lots of semiconductor, aerospace, forestry and ag manufacturers here, but what we have pales in comparison to the manufacturing belt where you are. We did have a lot of small shops. I think a large percentage of those small shops have been wiped out by Covid. Either the older owners actually died from the illness or it just tightened the screws on everything early on to where they didn't care to keep grinding on. In my neck of the woods, they are all gone. No small machine shops. When overseas supply issues put domestic manufacturing into high gear shops out here got slammed and still are.
It's weird in my opinion. I hear of shops that are drowning with work, desperate to hire and expand, waiting on machinery, etc. I also know a lot of shops in the last two years that went bankrupt and several I know were due to little or no work. A lot of large companies moved everything internal with Covid eliminating a lot of outside suppliers. I honestly think a lot of that has to do with the cost and ease of purchasing and tooling up a machine today compared to 20 years ago.

Every business is different. You’re going to have to figure out your own sweet spot.

I’m a 1 man shop and I’m usually running 2 or 3 cnc’s at a time. I quote at $60/hr but I’m generous with programming, set up and run times. I’m also faster than your average guy.

Like I said, my customers are OEMs. If I sub the work to you, you gotta be cheap enough to make me profit. Likewise if you sub it down to the next guy.

I am a relatively short run job shop. Most of my work is repeat stuff. Every time I get an order, the pc price includes 25% markup on material, a programming charge and any special tooling or fixtures. So basically the customer pays for programming every time. The markup on material covers any price increases in material so that I’m not constantly going back to the customer with price changes.

I still have some loser jobs where I take it in the shorts, but I also have some huge winners from the same customer so it all comes out in the wash.
Repeat work would be nice. When I was doing more tooling work, while the parts were never the same, there were several families that were similar enough that their parts became familiar.

Of note, both you and houdini have multiple machines. You might quote at $60/hr but your really running at $120/$180 an hour. While $60 an hour may not be profitable nor enough to support you or your shop, running 2-3 machines is.
 
Well, it's good that you put out there what you doo. Most of us knowing that you have a Brother, are ass_u_ming that you run production.

I started in tool and die. I like the work, but i hate looking at a stamping die or a machine, knowing how many hours are into it. I always felt like
I was ripping someone off.

I got into production then, and I can make more at a lesser rate, and I have a pile of parts to show for it.

But, if you are dooing ones, ypu really can't run multiples very easy, and you likely would need to charge more.

On the other side, I've only worked a 40 hr week in my shop for a few weeks back in '97 when we were slow. I know that some folks can make a shop run on 40 hours, but I'm not that guy. I have one running right now, and will hopefully not stop for the next week.

I had part time help to maybe 2000 hrs last year, but maybe only 200 this year. Otherwise it's been just me this year.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 








 
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