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camel back drill press

todda323

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 24, 2022
Hey all, although I have been stalking here for a while this is my first time posting. I am quite possibly biting off more than I can chew this time. With a post drill project still in process I am seriously considering taking this on additionally for the winter. Now I have to explain that I have no experience with these drills but I believe I possess a fraction of common sense, a hair of mechanical ability and the annoying habit of asking too many questions of those who can tell me what chews fingers off (I still have all nine of em). I have never owned one and if I'm lucky that may change. This appears to be a Rockwell 20" There aren't quite enough photos for my liking and the definition is not quite what I would like so I am going to take a trip to look in person. If anyone has any input as to what to look for, suggestions, experiences, parts that are commonly damaged or missing etc., photos of things I should look for as missing or damaged let er rip please! I definitely don't want to get myself in to something I wish I had asked questions about before hand. I know to check babbitt bearings, the frame for cracks and damage, gears for excessive wear/play and missing teeth, maybe take a dial indicator and check for run out on the quill (what would be acceptable or repairable?) I believe the motor looks like it may be a 3 phase. No photos of the tag. It seems I read somewhere someone had a Rockwell with a 1ph. Maybe repowered? Does anyone have any idea of age or when Rockwell quit making the 20"? Oh I may post this thread on other forums in search of information so please don't be offended if you see it again. I'm just in search of as much information and input as I can get in a short time.

Thanks so much for everyone's input. You all are great and I look forward to the conversation and information.
 

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You may find more love in the "antique" forum.
Looks lke a camelback, for sure. They are slow, have hells of torque, will whip yo to bits against the column if you do not clamp the work down.
Not much that can't be fixed if you have a lathe, and the castings are not broken.

Broken gear teeth would probably be the likeliest hard-to-fix problem. Bent spindle can be straghtened, loose bearing bushed, galled taper reamed or re-bored, burnt motor replaced
If you have big holes to drill, you will love it.
 
Make sure tee spindle taper, if it has one, is some standard. Some used a1/2 straight hole with a setscrew to hold s&d bits only, no chuck.
I would like to see 0.003 runout or less after repairs.
Bill D
 
I've seen a few of these "Rockwell" drills. They appear to be very similar, or perhaps identical, to Royersford "Excelsior" drills made in Royersford, PA. I would guess that Royersford produced them for a reseller- the ______ & Son, Chicago cast into the column. I don't think they had any connection to the better known Rockwell Manufacturing Company, makers of wood working machinery (along with many other things).

Royersford also rebadged drills for the Champion Forge & Blower Co. of Lancaster, PA.

The motor is an add-on, as that machine would have originally been line shaft powered.

The table hole pattern is odd. I'd say it has been modified, or replaced with a scrap metal "make do" shop fix.
 
It is difficult to make out the makers name, but I am sure it is J Ryerson & Son, Chicago who made Rockwell drilling machines.

I don't know for sure, but I doubt there is any connection with the Rockwell of bench drill etc. fame.

A quick search found a few Rockwell drills made by Ryerson

There is some history here: http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=2255&tab=0

Confusingly, one of the brochures refers to Ryerson-Rockford Machine Tools....

The table on the Rockwell machine looks a bit odd. Maybe it isn't original?

Here is another 20 inch Ryerson Rockwell table I found while searching. Warning, disturbing image:












Table from drill press by Joseph T Ryerson & Sons, Chicago.jpg

Edit: I didn't see Andy's post before writing the above.
 
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As you mentioned, the photos could be better. It looks like it is reasonable complete and in restorable condition. Missing gear teeth seems to be common. They csn often be repaired, but it takes some ability.
The main factors to consider are how much work is needed, are there missing parts that can be hard to find or expensive, and the price.
I have a Royersford Excelsior.
I think these drill presses are good for home shops (if you have the need for one), but they generally sell for pretty low prices. I know of one that was fully and very nicely restored that had been for sale, snd may still be for at least a yesr and maybe quite a bit longer, with an asking price of about $700. Many sell for far less.
 


Speaking of cost of restoration vs value. This is really nice but I'll just have to look at it on youtube
 
Boys, we're a papa. So preliminary questions. What is the rod near the pulley in pic 12 and 13 with nothing on it. I have seen similar used as a rest for the feed handle. What does the nut on the bottom of the stand hold in pic 18 and finally thoughts on the pulley on the pillar behind the quill and kind of under the brass badge that seems to have nothing running to it. It feels like the weight is attached and the chain feels ok. I have both hand levers. Took them off for transport. Maybe no stop collar? I would think i could make one without terrible difficulty. Thoughts and opinions on that if ya got em. So let er rip guys. Anything look missing or out of place? I'll get better pics later today when I can take it up to the shop with the tractor. Then I will begin a tear down and inspection.
 

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The rod is your "hitching post" for the feed handle. The handle should have a latch that hooks over the rod keeping the dog disengaged from the shaft and and less importantly keeping the handle from falling on one's noggin if it gets bumped.
 
What does the nut on the bottom of the stand hold in pic 18
I think the big nut will be holding the pillar into the base of the machine. Probably best left untouched.

and finally thoughts on the pulley on the pillar behind the quill and kind of under the brass badge that seems to have nothing running to it. It feels like the weight is attached and the chain feels ok.

If you are referring to a pulley inside the casting, it's probably for the counterweight chain. There could be 2 or 3 pulleys to allow the counterweight to work inside the vertical part of the pillar.
 
Rob I think it's possible mine may be the same as yours. Someone said companies would build them and badge them for whoever. Do you have any more pics of yours? I started an inspection of mine today and I could definately use some reference pics.
 
Rob I think it's possible mine may be the same as yours. Someone said companies would build them and badge them for whoever. Do you have any more pics of yours? I started an inspection of mine today and I could definately use some reference pics.

It is not my drill. Saw it for sale on Facebook.
Here are the other pictures.

Rob
 

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Joseph Ryerson started out as a firm supplying tools, machinery, and metals in Chicago, Illinois. They went on to become a steel/metals supplier and eventually were absorbed into Inland Steel. Ryerson, to my knowledge, never manufactured any of the machine tools they sold. Ryerson was a big enough firm to have machinery builders add the Ryerson name onto the patterns for castings used to build the machinery. I have seen Ryerson ironworkers (a combination machine for punching, shearing, and notching of structural steel and steel used in other fabrication work). I have seen Ryerson's name on a fairly heavy old lathe in the engine room of a long-gone Great Lakes ore boat. I've seen a few Ryerson-branded camelback drills as well. I do not know when Ryerson stopped offering machinery with their name on it, nor do I know who was making the various machine tools and metal forming machinery for them.

As has been noted in this thread, the basic design of camelback or upright drill was a common things with many manufacturers. Differences in things like power feed mechanism, back gearing, and table elevation mechanism were the major differences from one manufacturer to the next.

I'd say the OP's drill was used hard and put up wet, given the appearance of the table. The table is not original to the drill. Chances are the original table was either cratered by people who did not care about the boss' machinery to the point it was unusable. It is quite common on these old drills to find tables that make Swiss Cheese of the surface of the moon look like a newly surfaced ice skating rink. My guess is the table got to that point, and some enterprising soul made a replacement out of steel plate or maybe an undrilled pipe blind flange (an easy way to get hold of a thick and large diameter disc of cast iron or forged steel).

These camelback drills are amazing old machines in their own right. I own and use two of them: a 25" Cincinnati Bickford with original motor drive, and a 20" Barnes.
As I've posted here previously, these old camelback drills are way different than the modern v-belt driven tubular column drill presses that are in common use. Namely, these old drills with their deeper reduction of speed, produce a lot more torque, and if the flat belts are properly made up, are not too likely to slip if the drill grabs.
There is also a lot of stored energyin the driveline of these old drills. Even if the motor is switched off, there is some coasting down with a good deal of torque still there. Hence, anytime these old drills are used, clamping the work to the table or clamping the drill press vise to the table is the thing to do. These old drills with their considerable torque, will wind up a drill and the job and pull it free of a user's hand, or wind the user and his hand up with it. I keep an assortment of 'jewelry' in the form of tee nuts, clamping studs, steel clamping straps and similar by each of my camelback drills.

The other thing to address on these old drills is oiling before each use. Get to know all the oiling points on the drill press, and there will be a LOT of them on a drill with power feed and back gearing. I keep a pump oil can with a long spout and pointed nozzle by each drill press, filled with Tractor Hydraulic Oil (ISO 46 or ISO 68).
It is handy to have a short stepladder by the drill to access the uppermost oiling points. I'd suggest looking in the top of the crown gear (the spindle passes up thru this gear). There may be an oil hole in the web of this gear to oil the thrust washer between it and the top of the drill press frame. Blow out any oil holes with something like automotive brake parts cleaner and the thin tube 'wands' to make sure the oiling points are not choked with grunge. I run some automotive grease on the bevel pinion and crown gear as well as on the other open gearing on my camelback drills. A light greasing is about all that is needed. Open gear lube such as "Crater Compound" is really the ticket, but it is a sticky, messy proposition. For light use, some grease made for heavy automotive or heavy equipment service is OK in my opinion.

When not using the camelback drill, it is a good idea to run the belt off the cone pulleys. This will prevent the belt permanently stretching, particularly if a leather belt is used and weather is humid. When running the belt off the pulleys, try not to let it hand on the upper shaft bearings as these are usually oily.

These are great old drills, but need a bit more doing to use them safely and properly. They will push a large diameter drill thru steel with a surprisingly low motor horsepower driving them. Slower, perhaps, but for a home shop or small shop, the old drills work quite well. These are a 'real machine tool', not some light duty "import' drill press. As such, using one of these drills calls for a bit more setup in the form of securing the work to the table rather than making the mistake of hanging onto the job with one's hand. I use my camelback drills for running taper shank drills, counterbores and reamers on jobs such as drilling structural steel, fabrication work and blacksmith work. Years ago, I had a job to drill a bunch of 1 1/4" diameter holes thru some 5160 locomotive leaf springs. I made a simple jig and drilled 1/4" pilot holes thru the spring leaves. I then made a setup on the Cincinnati Bickford camelback drill and started pushing a 3/4" taper shank drill thru the spring material, followed by the 1 1/4" diameter drill. I was taking the chips away with a flat shovel and filling a wheelbarrow with them. The old camelback drill just kept right on, and the power feed and 'knockoff dog' made easy work of it. Great old machine tools.
 
well fellas here it is. This thing was a beast to move by myself. Senior Kubota helped a little but mostly watched. While I now have a hemorrhoid I do have a pretty cool drill press. Any way what do you think of the babbit? The shaft has no play in it and that is while keeping the top bearings hand snug. No shims though forward or or aft though. Hope that doesn't mean it's close to a re pour. Any suggestions for disassembly of the main shaft?
 

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Joe thank you very much for the information. I am greatful. I will take your advice with me. I'm making notes as I go from this and several other forums I have posted this topic under. I am grateful for all of the input and suggestions everyone on here has given me. I have only seen these drills and now own one. Not being a machinist, black smith or mechanic I find myself wishing I'd payed more attention to my father, who had an engineering and mechanical background, growing up. Now I have to learn from the internet like the rest of the world.
Joseph Ryerson started out as a firm supplying tools, machinery, and metals in Chicago, Illinois. They went on to become a steel/metals supplier and eventually were absorbed into Inland Steel. Ryerson, to my knowledge, never manufactured any of the machine tools they sold. Ryerson was a big enough firm to have machinery builders add the Ryerson name onto the patterns for castings used to build the machinery. I have seen Ryerson ironworkers (a combination machine for punching, shearing, and notching of structural steel and steel used in other fabrication work). I have seen Ryerson's name on a fairly heavy old lathe in the engine room of a long-gone Great Lakes ore boat. I've seen a few Ryerson-branded camelback drills as well. I do not know when Ryerson stopped offering machinery with their name on it, nor do I know who was making the various machine tools and metal forming machinery for them.

As has been noted in this thread, the basic design of camelback or upright drill was a common things with many manufacturers. Differences in things like power feed mechanism, back gearing, and table elevation mechanism were the major differences from one manufacturer to the next.

I'd say the OP's drill was used hard and put up wet, given the appearance of the table. The table is not original to the drill. Chances are the original table was either cratered by people who did not care about the boss' machinery to the point it was unusable. It is quite common on these old drills to find tables that make Swiss Cheese of the surface of the moon look like a newly surfaced ice skating rink. My guess is the table got to that point, and some enterprising soul made a replacement out of steel plate or maybe an undrilled pipe blind flange (an easy way to get hold of a thick and large diameter disc of cast iron or forged steel).

These camelback drills are amazing old machines in their own right. I own and use two of them: a 25" Cincinnati Bickford with original motor drive, and a 20" Barnes.
As I've posted here previously, these old camelback drills are way different than the modern v-belt driven tubular column drill presses that are in common use. Namely, these old drills with their deeper reduction of speed, produce a lot more torque, and if the flat belts are properly made up, are not too likely to slip if the drill grabs.
There is also a lot of stored energyin the driveline of these old drills. Even if the motor is switched off, there is some coasting down with a good deal of torque still there. Hence, anytime these old drills are used, clamping the work to the table or clamping the drill press vise to the table is the thing to do. These old drills with their considerable torque, will wind up a drill and the job and pull it free of a user's hand, or wind the user and his hand up with it. I keep an assortment of 'jewelry' in the form of tee nuts, clamping studs, steel clamping straps and similar by each of my camelback drills.

The other thing to address on these old drills is oiling before each use. Get to know all the oiling points on the drill press, and there will be a LOT of them on a drill with power feed and back gearing. I keep a pump oil can with a long spout and pointed nozzle by each drill press, filled with Tractor Hydraulic Oil (ISO 46 or ISO 68).
It is handy to have a short stepladder by the drill to access the uppermost oiling points. I'd suggest looking in the top of the crown gear (the spindle passes up thru this gear). There may be an oil hole in the web of this gear to oil the thrust washer between it and the top of the drill press frame. Blow out any oil holes with something like automotive brake parts cleaner and the thin tube 'wands' to make sure the oiling points are not choked with grunge. I run some automotive grease on the bevel pinion and crown gear as well as on the other open gearing on my camelback drills. A light greasing is about all that is needed. Open gear lube such as "Crater Compound" is really the ticket, but it is a sticky, messy proposition. For light use, some grease made for heavy automotive or heavy equipment service is OK in my opinion.

When not using the camelback drill, it is a good idea to run the belt off the cone pulleys. This will prevent the belt permanently stretching, particularly if a leather belt is used and weather is humid. When running the belt off the pulleys, try not to let it hand on the upper shaft bearings as these are usually oily.

These are great old drills, but need a bit more doing to use them safely and properly. They will push a large diameter drill thru steel with a surprisingly low motor horsepower driving them. Slower, perhaps, but for a home shop or small shop, the old drills work quite well. These are a 'real machine tool', not some light duty "import' drill press. As such, using one of these drills calls for a bit more setup in the form of securing the work to the table rather than making the mistake of hanging onto the job with one's hand. I use my camelback drills for running taper shank drills, counterbores and reamers on jobs such as drilling structural steel, fabrication work and blacksmith work. Years ago, I had a job to drill a bunch of 1 1/4" diameter holes thru some 5160 locomotive leaf springs. I made a simple jig and drilled 1/4" pilot holes thru the spring leaves. I then made a setup on the Cincinnati Bickford camelback drill and started pushing a 3/4" taper shank drill thru the spring material, followed by the 1 1/4" diameter drill. I was taking the chips away with a flat shovel and filling a wheelbarrow with them. The old camelback drill just kept right on, and the power feed and 'knockoff dog' made easy work of it. Great old machine tools.
 
Todda33:

Thanks for the kind words. Like your late father, I am a mechanical engineer by profession and a machinist by trade.

As for the babbitt in the drill's top-shaft bearings: I've seen lots worse that ran for years in older machinery. It is apparent that someone rebabbitted those bearings at some point in the drill's past history. Here is what I suggest:

1. clean the bearings with solvent to get off old oil and dirt. Some dirt will be imbedded in the babbitt, and it can stay there.

2. Polish the shaft journals that run in those bearings using fine emery cloth and oil. Emery cloth gotten in the form of a strip from a 'shop roll' is the ticket. Use a motion like you were shining shoes with a taut rag, and move along the journal area (journal being the term for the portion of the shaft which runs in a bearing). Clean well with solvent after polishing with emery cloth. We are not looking for a mirror finish, just knocking down the ridging and roughness. A finish where you see light 'brush marks' from the emery cloth running at an angle to the shaft is fine. It will help hold the oil film in the bearings.

3. Check the flat surfaces at the split joints of the bearings to be sure none of the babbitt projects above the surface of the cast iron bearing bodies. Use a straightedge such as the blade of a square or a piece of flat steel to check this. Use a coarse bastard cut file to take down any projecting babbitt. The cast iron bearing housing surfaces must be flat with no high spots or humps of babbitt sticking up. A swipe with a bastard cut file should do it. When you are done with that, take the edge of
a lathe parting tool, or the edge of a piece of power hacksaw blade, or similar and use it as you would use a 'cabinet scraper' on wood. Draw the scraper towards yourself along the edges of the babbitt at the split joints to put a chamfer on them.

4. Using the same flat scraper (which can be any sort of flat piece of thin steel such as a piece of an old circular saw blade), dress the corners of the scraper to small radius'. This will keep them from digging and gouging the babbitt. Using the flat scraper, drawing it towards yourself, lightly scrape the running surfaces of the babbitt.
This will remove some of the glazing, carbonized oil and any burrs. Just a very light shave is all that is needed. When you are done, lightly polish the babbitt using a fine "Scotchbrite" pad, then clean the bearings with solvent and wipers. Make sure all edges of the babbitt have a chamfer on them.

5. Ideally, Prussian Blue (a dark blue oil-based paste) is used, but you can use a light film of grease for this next step. Put a light coating, and this takes the form of a thin film, almost a haze, of the Prussian Blue (this stuff is like artist's oil paint and a dab goes a LONG way for 'bluing in' bearings), on the shaft journals. Carefully lay the shaft with its journals in the bearings and roll the shaft by hand for a turn or two in both directions. Lift the shaft straight up and out of the bearings. Roll the bearing caps onto the shaft in this same manner. When you are done, you will see some blue spots or streaks on the babbitt. That tells you where the shaft journal was making contact. Using a smaller/narrower version of your home-made scraper, or a 'spoon' type bearing scraper if you have or care to get one, you then pare away the babbitt in very light cuts wherever the blue appeared on it. Very light small strokes of the scraper are all that is needed. When done with scraping, a swipe with the Scotchbrite, wash with solvent and roll the blued shaft journals into the bearings. This gets repeated until you have a fairly consistent pattern of blue spots and streaks rather than a few random blued areas and plenty of unblued babbitt. When you have a pattern of blue that is distributed over the surface of the babbitt, kind of like birdshot, you are good. This will be about 75%-80% contact which is all you need for this type of bearing and this type machine tool.


6. Assemble the shaft in the bearings with no shims between the upper and lower halves. Lightly make up the bolts and see if the shaft will turn. Hopefully, the shaft will be bound in the bearings. At that point, you start cutting shims. Shims have been cut from anything handy: manila paper, gasket material, thin 'Micarta', leather, sides of tin cans, pieces of galvanized sheet metal scrap from stove pipe.... and, even from actual shim stock. I prefer to use brass shim stock for these types of bearings. In that way, if a shim does rub against a shaft journal, it will not score it or damage it. Shims are cut using tin snips for thin material. I cut the shims so they are about 1/32" - 1/16" shy of meeting the side of the shaft journal. Shims must be deburred so that they lay flat and tight together when made up in the bearing. Burrs or folds in thin shims will cause the shim stack to be soft and act like a spring rather than solid shimming. I deburr thin shims by laying them on a flat piece of steel and rolling a piece of drill rod about 1/2" or larger in diameter over them like a rolling pin. This works down any burrs or rippling from the tinsnips. Heavier shims are laid on a piece of flat steel and the edges lightly hammered with the flat face of a ball pein hammer. This also works down any burrs or rippling.

7. Add shims until the shaft can be turned in the bearings. You can use anything handy for 'trial shims', sticking it into the split joint until you have enough clearance for the shaft to be turned. When you can turn the shaft easily but still feel some very light drag or friction from the bearings, you are at the starting point for setting the running clearance. Take the trial shims you have used to get to this point, and measure them with a micrometer. Write down the thicknesses and add them up for each shim pack. If you have a lot of thin shims, making one heavier shim almost as thick as the pack of thin ones is preferred. For example, if you wound up with 0.030" of shim and had something like 10 different pieces of trial shim, you might go for a 0.020" shim and two shims at 0.005" each.

8. When you have the trial shims replaced with properly cut and fitted shims, pull down the bolts on the bearing caps. Not crazy tight, but a good tightness. Make sure the shaft can still be turned by hand. Setup a dial indicator so the contact tip touches the shaft immediately outside the bearing, at 12:00 position. Push down hard on the shaft and set the indicator to zero. Using a small pinch bar and some wood blocking, pry up on the shaft at the 6:00 position (under the indicator tip location). Read the indicator and this will be the clearance in the bearing. I am guessing the shaft journals are somewhere around 1 1/2" diameter, give or take. I'd go with 0.002"-004" of clearance. To get this clearance established, you play with the shims. You add or take out shims until the clearance is where you need it to be.
0.002"-0.004" is on the looser side, but this is a low-speed application and we are dealing with a shaft that may have some scoring and some babbitt that has some laps and porosity.

9. If you do not have a dial indicator, you may be able to slip a small feeler gauge in between the top of the shaft journal and the babbitt to check clearance. Computer printer paper mikes at 0.004", typically. You could even place slips of paper on the shaft journal at 12:00 and make up the bearing caps. If you can just draw the paper out with some drag felt, you have set the bearing clearances good enough for an old camelback drill press. These are backwoods methods, and work fine for old machinery that is neither precise nor run at high speeds.


10. The proof of your job with the bearings is how they run. The other factor on this particular drill is how the bevel pinion and crown gear (on the spindle) mate up. If you mess with bearing clearances, you may affect the engagement of the bevel pinion and crown gear. There may be a thrust shim (often made of phenolic or 'bakelite', or sometimes bronze) under the hub of the crown gear. This thrust shim does two things: sets the gear lash/tooth engagement and takes the thrust load from the gearing. Clean the gear teeth with solvent and put some Prussian Blue or light film of grease on one gear's teeth. Run the assembled shaft and gearing by hand and check tooth contact. You may find the thrust shim is worn and the tooth engagement is 'not hitting where it should'. If you have a lathe, make a new thrust shim. If you are Ok with how the gear tooth contact is, run the drill under power at its lowest speed. Oil the bearings with ISO 46 or ISO 68 oil (known as "DTE, or 'dynamo, turbine, engine' oil, a designation still used). Check the bearings for heat. Use the back of your hand as your finger tips may be too callused for feeling the heat. If the bearing is heating rapidly, or is too hot to put your hand on, it is running too hot. Clearances are too tight. Add a 0.002" shim to one side of the bearing split joint and try again. Purists may howl that shimming one side and not the other is dirty pool, but it is what oldtimers did and what I;ve done a number of times to tweak a bearing clearance to where it needs to be. When the bearings are properly set for clearance, with no load on the drill, you may be awhile in feeling any warmth in them. A warmth about like lukewarm coffee is what I'd hope for under load with some run time.
 








 
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