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Cheaper Machine w/ Upgrades vs More Expensive Machine Nearly Stock

I noticed the other day Haas ditched the MM2 but put back the side mount tool changer option on the SMM
 
They should just have ball screw pitch be an option, rather than having a separate model.
I think its strange they ditched the MM2 (20"), I wouldn't recommend people buy the MM (16")because the working area is too small, and the tool changer is to close so you get chips on your tool taper from coolant spraying up into the changer.
But if its your first machine, you can make money no matter which one you get.
 
You can actually make money with a kmb-1, it's just not as pleasant :D
yeah, shit, if the guys making money with a laser competing against half the population, the other half making wood shit with table top cnc routers,
then any commercial VMC will rock. :D

edit: oops I guess thirds, cause a third is making garbage with 3D printers also. :D
 
You can actually make money with a kmb-1, it's just not as pleasant :D
Actually I back tracked and saw a bunch of threads of you guys arguing about Chinese machines you got the low down on,
I wouldn't buy a Chinese machine, but do you know anything about the Taiwanese machines/market at all?
Just curious, seems they have stepped up their game on quality.
 
I wouldn't buy a Chinese machine, but do you know anything about the Taiwanese machines/market at all?
Not too much, except at one place we had an Awea that was not impressive, and when looking for a vtl for someone I checked out you ji. They were very not-impressive also. Been there several times, it's pretty, food is okay, people are nice. Girls are better on the mainland tho. Ruthless, but better.

One maybe-interesting thing is, in the past several years - five or so ? - there've been several upstart machine tool companies started in the big country that are university offshoots. They've been doing some really interesting stuff. I luvs me some linear motors, for example. Harcrete is increasingly popular, castings are better engineered, basic designs are pretty impressive. Pure speculation but I'm guessing one of the national objectives this time is improving the domestic machine tool industry. When they do that, they don't fuck around. 1 1/2 billion people brings some resources to the table.

How would you like your vf-2 to compete with this ? For less money ? And the vf2/3 is probably their best product ...

front.jpg

(I know, people talk about taking the sheet metal off to do big parts, but have you ever done that ? I know of one place that did, once. Meanwhile, the double-column design kicks ass 365 days a year).

Or look at Conrad's Trak ... probably made in china anyhow but here's an alternative at half the price and there's ten more like this from different cities

cheapy.jpg

btw, cf Mr Haj's infatuation with "service and support", out of interest (Hi ! I'm bob, and I'm addicted to machine tools !) I took a look. Not a single photo or bit of info about the construction of the machine. No price. Went to downloads, okay, here's a 3d file ! except it turned out to be three or four files called "site prep" in some half-ass format I've never seen - not iges, not stl, not even dxf, some fuckwit pile of shit that no one can read and for fun I downloaded the offline control program which opened as "not a valid windows file" so yeah, "service and support". Great.

At least when we sell a machine we don't tell the buyer "heck yeah, throw a 900 lb forging in here, remove 90% of it all in one shot and it'll be fine. And thanks very much for the $700,000, see ya 'round !)

I mean, shit. With "service and support" like that, I'd rather do without.

Does Taiwan make anything like this ?

hobby.jpg

We're talking ten to fifteenish, what tormach sells for thirty, and there must be twenty places building them. They are totally suitable for beginners, a garage shop, some guy who wants to make knives or engraved medallions or small parts, a starter machine. Do you have that ?

You guys can buy your office mills for fifty, and pay $1300/ton more for steel, and six times as much for rent, and fight the city and county and state every day, and pay three times as much for health care as any other place in the world, and think you'll be competitive all you want. I think you're dreaming.

Since you asked :) I'd say Taiwan will stay where they are, doing okay stuff and maybe specialties, but they're going to be swamped by the mainland. They don't have the resources. A market of thirty million (or even include the entire US, three hundred million) against one anda half billion, as far as commodity machines go, not a chance.
 
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Not too much, except at one place we had an Awea that was not impressive, and when looking for a vtl for someone I checked out you ji. They were very not-impressive also. Been there several times, it's pretty, food is okay, people are nice. Girls are better on the mainland tho. Ruthless, but better.

One maybe-interesting thing is, in the past several years - five or so ? - there've been several upstart machine tool companies started in the big country that are university offshoots. They've been doing some really interesting stuff. I luvs me some linear motors, for example. Harcrete is increasingly popular, castings are better engineered, basic designs are pretty impressive. Pure speculation but I'm guessing one of the national objectives this time is improving the domestic machine tool industry. When they do that, they don't fuck around. 1 1/2 billion people brings some resources to the table.

How would you like your vf-2 to compete with this ? For less money ? And the vf2/3 is probably their best product ...

View attachment 417642

(I know, people talk about taking the sheet metal off to do big parts, but have you ever done that ? I know of one place that did, once. Meanwhile, the double-column design kicks ass 365 days a year).

Or look at Conrad's Trak ... probably made in china anyhow but here's an alternative at half the price and there's ten more like this from different cities

View attachment 417643

btw, cf Mr Haj's infatuation with "service and support", out of interest (Hi ! I'm bob, and I'm addicted to machine tools !) I took a look. Not a single photo or bit of info about the construction of the machine. No price. Went to downloads, okay, here's a 3d file ! except it turned out to be three or four files called "site prep" in some half-ass format I've never seen - not iges, not stl, not even dxf, some fuckwit pile of shit that no one can read and for fun I downloaded the offline control program which opened as "not a valid windows file" so yeah, "service and support". Great.

At least when we sell a machine we don't tell the buyer "heck yeah, throw a 900 lb forging in here, remove 90% of it all in one shot and it'll be fine. And thanks very much for the $700,000, see ya 'round !)

I mean, shit. With "service and support" like that, I'd rather do without.

Does Taiwan make anything like this ?

View attachment 417644

We're talking ten to fifteenish, what tormach sells for thirty, and there must be twenty places building them. They are totally suitable for beginners, a garage shop, some guy who wants to make knives or engraved medallions or small parts, a starter machine. Do you have that ?

You guys can buy your office mills for fifty, and pay $1300/ton more for steel, and six times as much for rent, and fight the city and county and state every day, and pay three times as much for health care as any other place in the world, and think you'll be competitive all you want. I think you're dreaming.

Since you asked :) I'd say Taiwan will stay where they are, doing okay stuff and maybe specialties, but they're going to be swamped by the mainland. They don't have the resources. A market of thirty million (or even include the entire US, three hundred million) against one anda half billion, as far as commodity machines go, not a chance.
Chinese machines in the US will be the same as everything eventually, its inevitable, almost every other market, rather you like it or not, cost/profit trumps quality in the USA, and has for a long time.
machine tools are starting to follow suit, Haas low end, now Mazak has a low end, Dn made a couple low end, Okuma Genos is now their low end, Hermle, Gf Mill E made in China.....the low end has already started a while ago.

You'll soon see the $50k VMC at harbor Freight that performs almost as well as high end, just like everything else, and when this happens, like with everything else, the highend goes byby.
 
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Yeah, I'd rather have an SS with the finer pitch screws.
Actually if I'm buying a Haas it all goes backwards, the slower they are the better they are.
So I'ma buy a VM2 which is the slowest model, for tool and die work, hence the M in VM is mold machine.
I had a fellow business owner who was doing their own tool and die on a Hurco, wanted a Haas because they saw mine,
I told them get the VM2, went to check out their new rig, VF2SS ahahahahahaha, I couldn't tell them that they bought 2 steps away from what I said.
Never saw any pics of their awesome surface finishes.
 
whether you like it or not, cost/profit trumps quality in the USA, and has for a long time.
What I'm seeing that's interesting tho is that, with the entry of university-related new companies, a lot of the changes are not cost-cutting. Or to be more precise, they cut costs but not by cheapifying the product: the product ends up cheaper because of better designs.

For instance. much of the machine tool world is stuck on ballscrews. Ballscrews suck, linear motors kick ass. But they require change, which the trad companies don't want to do.

Portal style is way better than c-frame, and fully half the newer verticals now are built that way.

Or there's no way a recent postgrad from mechanical engineering is going to create a monstrosity like the umc. For all intents and purposes it's shit, a pile of parts bolted together like frankenstein's monster. With new companies, you don't get that.

They do come up with some goofy ideas but overall, there's a lot of improvements in basic ideas that are quite positive. It's not just about cheaper.
 
What I'm seeing that's interesting tho is that, with the entry of university-related new companies, a lot of the changes are not cost-cutting. Or to be more precise, they cut costs but not by cheapifying the product: the product ends up cheaper because of better designs.

For instance. much of the machine tool world is stuck on ballscrews. Ballscrews suck, linear motors kick ass. But they require change, which the trad companies don't want to do.

Portal style is way better than c-frame, and fully half the newer verticals now are built that way.

Or there's no way a recent postgrad from mechanical engineering is going to create a monstrosity like the umc. For all intents and purposes it's shit, a pile of parts bolted together like frankenstein's monster. With new companies, you don't get that.

They do come up with some goofy ideas but overall, there's a lot of improvements in basic ideas that are quite positive. It's not just about cheaper.
This is also true, you cannot forget that another component of products is as technology increase, prices lower.
Doesn't matter the tech, its how it is.

Sometimes they replace "higher quality" parts of the tech with "more efficient" tech though, and that can drive older people nuts.

for me the peak of audiophile grade audio electronics died in the 90's and now extremely small, cool running, efficient, digitally controlled garbage replaced it.

I used to be one of the top highend IASCA Certified custom car audio fabricators, maybe 3 of us in the whole city,
I trained a guy, 30 years a go now, and he kept in the field,
Now I go in to sit in a Lamborghini or Mclaren what ever, with some $100k system, that looks Awesome!, and sound like shit!
my buddy has numbed out over the years and cant hear it, but you pull out an RTA (real time analyzer) and an oscilloscope, to visually show your not just joking,
and no one likes when I do that.
 
Now I go in to sit in a Lamborghini or Mclaren what ever, with some $100k system, that looks Awesome!, and sound like shit!
Some of that has to be the source material. I swear, if I see "remastered" anywhere on a recording, they can wipe their ass with it. It's been ruined. The Beatles spend two weeks getting a recording to sound the way they want just so that twenty years later some backwards-hat beard balmer (thanks freedom) with the brains of a flea can butcher their work.

One of those asshats even took the triangle out of Dark Side of the Moon. What a bunch of losers.
 
Some of that has to be the source material. I swear, if I see "remastered" anywhere on a recording, they can wipe their ass with it. It's been ruined. The Beatles spend two weeks getting a recording to sound the way they want just so that twenty years later some backwards-hat beard balmer (thanks freedom) with the brains of a flea can butcher their work.

One of those asshats even took the triangle out of Dark Side of the Moon. What a bunch of losers.

sacrilegious!​


Let alone you almost cant even get uncompressed audio sources anymore, everything has some sort of compression.
my buddy is trying to let me hear Dire Straits, compressed MP3, off his phone, compressed through Bluetooth, to the deck, and then have it amplified digitally which btw has flaws, and always has, but we ignore that now.
with equipment with like a 70db signal to noise, and over 1% distortion.....
And I'm like you cant hear that?,
No what?
U gotta be fkn kidding me man, get the RTA!
 
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Yeah, I'd rather have an SS with the finer pitch screws.
I’ve looked through the options before. An ss with a. Fine pitch is essentially the vm series. With 2 notable differences being the table and the main Column being larger in the vm.
I did a cad look through of all there models a while ago and stripped them all down to castings. The vm is close to buying the next size series casting stuffed into a smaller machine.

Kinda like the yt (extended y option)
I say kinda becouse the vm did look like a unique casting when placed by the yt castings in cad. Vm had more heft.

It’s funny becouse often the ss is cheaper than optioning oht a standard vf to be the same. Tho I’m sure that’s a negotiation point when your deeper into a purchase
 

sacrilegious!​


Let alone you almost cant even get uncompressed audio sources anymore, everything has some sort of compression.
my buddy is trying to let me hear Dire Straits, compressed MP3, off his phone, compressed through Bluetooth, to the deck, and then have it amplified digitally which btw has flaws, and always has, but we ignore that now.
with equipment with like a 70db signal to noise, and over 1% distortion.....
And I'm like you cant hear that?,
No what?
U gotta be fkn kidding me man, get the RTA!
One day I’d like to hand with you of you sound perverts
This is also true, you cannot forget that another component of products is as technology increase, prices lower.
Doesn't matter the tech, its how it is.

Sometimes they replace "higher quality" parts of the tech with "more efficient" tech though, and that can drive older people nuts.

for me the peak of audiophile grade audio electronics died in the 90's and now extremely small, cool running, efficient, digitally controlled garbage replaced it.

I used to be one of the top highend IASCA Certified custom car audio fabricators, maybe 3 of us in the whole city,
I trained a guy, 30 years a go now, and he kept in the field,
Now I go in to sit in a Lamborghini or Mclaren what ever, with some $100k system, that looks Awesome!, and sound like shit!
my buddy has numbed out over the years and cant hear it, but you pull out an RTA (real time analyzer) and an oscilloscope, to visually show your not just joking,
and no one likes when I do that.
id love to spend a day with one of you audio pervs.
I have never been around truly good quality sound systems and tho I doubt I would/could truly appreciate it. It would be an informative/memorable experience learning
 
I would personally rather have a standard minimill or minimill2 than a SUPER, the machine is too small to actually get to or use the rapids,
and if I remember correct the ball screws have a higher pitch, less control, surface finish,.... and they cost more for what I think is a lesser machine.
a MM or MM2, or a TM1 or TM2
these should be cheap machines all over the place.
need to watch your garage door height though.
but you can tear some of the height off the machine.
here is my MM and MM2 tops ripped off to fit through a 84" door
View attachment 417419
The door is my concern at this point. It's 83" from the concrete floor to the brick at the top, so no additional wiggle room. I'm hearing 84.79" as the shipping height. What needs to be peeled off to get that elephant through that key hole and will I be able to figure out how to get it back on?
 
The door is my concern at this point. It's 83" from the concrete floor to the brick at the top, so no additional wiggle room. I'm hearing 84.79" as the shipping height. What needs to be peeled off to get that elephant through that key hole and will I be able to figure out how to get it back on?
The MM2 I would be worried, there was a lot to remove, the MM will be fine, maybe take the cable snake and bracket off, should be good.
 
The MM2 I would be worried, there was a lot to remove, the MM will be fine, maybe take the cable snake and bracket off, should be good.
I've found a few MMs in a 500 mile radius I could get shipped. Now to find someone to get it from the trailer into the basement garage. I guess that's a call to a local rigger?
 








 
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