Choices: Collet chuck for 10ee

[rcn11thacr]

Good morning,
I currently use the 2J collet system on my 10EE. To be frank about it, I hate buying old (potentially) worn collets that cost more than they should.

If you were looking for versatility in a modern collet system, with available collet racks for reasonable prices, and didn’t want to pay $30-50 buck per collet. What would you choose? What’s currently available in a direct mount D1-3 style for our lathes?

I don’t want to spend 2K on the chuck alone, but I want a very good chunk. I use collets a lot and while what I have i think is pretty nice, I’m tired of paying out the nose for ancient collets with unknown history. I want new collets I can depend on, easy to find replacements, at a price that is appropriate for the age and lack of use on said collet.

 

[Don's Engine]

5c collets are everywhere, easy to get and have tons of options for use. Lots of 5c stuff available. I use them at work all the time. With that my home shop is perfect for ER collets. Also widely available, priced at all levels and are extremely versatile. I have ER collet holders for my lathes and mill as well as collet blocks etc... for different jobs. I like the through design as you can hold long stuff and if you're not looking to get heart valve accuracy, even the Asian stuff which is super affordable will do the trick. I can also get away with having less of them as they adjust more readily to odd sizes. Hope that helps. Don

 

[rcn11thacr]

Hi Don,
Thanks for your input. I have looked at the ER collets and agree with your synopsis but dang, there are so many different types of ER collets to choose from that I get a bit lost.

Which ones should I narrow the scope down to that would give lots of options for size, availability, & price? I’m honestly not that familiar with them, although I already have a small amount of 11 & 16 in use in the shop. I’d want something that had good repeatability/consistency, preferably in an actual D1-3 chuck style (similar to the 2J chuck I have currently.

 

[TheOldCar]

I really like the Bison 5C on my 10EEs. Keyed chuck, easy to install quickly. I do think it sticks out farther than the type that use a drawbar, though.

 

[Hobby Racer]

Interested in this as well. A quick look at ER collet sizes show ER40 might be a good size for the 10EE. They have a clamping range of 0.118—1.024". Collects and chucks are inexpensive. Here are some cheap ones. You can get better for more $$.

D1-3 ER40 chuck

ER40 Collet Set

 

[rke[pler]

I think it depends on the expected use. If all you're doing is small rounds then the ER series will do fine. Rounds with occasional hex and square you're going to want 5C. Bigger rounds and hex and you're in 2J or maybe even 215 territory (with expensive emergency collets). Odd shape and bigger than 2" stuff and you might be looking at some of the 5C clutch collets.

 

[rcn11thacr]

This is all very good information, and i very much appreciate the input from qualified personnel. I'm a brand name kind of guy for most all things so Bison, Rovi, and other quality names would certainly be on my list (it's why i own a Monarch). 5C certainly appears to be the one that may be the most qualified. In my stack of 2J collets i generally use the larger size versions more often (many above 1'), than i do those below 1 inch. So having access to larger collets would never get old. Plus the 5C collets that i do have rarely get used due to the closers i have and the type of work i tend to do in a job shop environment. It would be nice to see the dust on those oiled collets getting cleaned off on a regular basis.

So 5C it is. Then the other gripe i have always had about my handwheel 2J collet is the limited room (at times) when working close to the chuck. I know Rovi has options for low profile chucks. Are there others out there that should be on the list? This would be direct mount D1-3, through hole, manual closer chucks (no air and i don't think i can use a pull back style on a Monarch). I'm thinking about a chuck that looks and provides the clearance similar to the original collet chuck offered on our lathes by Monarch. It does not have to be quite that small though.

 

[hanermo]

Everyone in europe pretty much uses er collets.
They have a big range, UNLIKE the us 5C, 2J, whatever, ERs are cheap, and are decent in TIR.
Of the 200+ shops I visited pretty much everyone had ER collets.

They are not very good in repeatable precision work - which is a lot of my stuff.
But Very Good for me is 0.01 mm or better in TIR -- better than the cheap collet specs.
I mostly use a 4-jaw adjustable chuck.
Slow, very accurate.

And probably the "real good" collets from Regofix, Swiss makers, Schunk, Iscar, Kaiser, do much better.
At 200€ per collet from the premium manufacturers.

My opinion is that ER is the cheapest, best, most versatile system, with possibility of buying premium collets as one-offs if a job justifies it.
Or a premium collet chuck, or pneumatic collet closer.

One mostly does not need a Schunk zero-point fixture on the VMC and the lathe for transferring work.
But if one does, it´s nice that it is easily available.
And the customer is just gonna have to eat the cost.

 

[Don's Engine]

Hi Don,
Thanks for your input. I have looked at the ER collets and agree with your synopsis but dang, there are so many different types of ER collets to choose from that I get a bit lost.

Which ones should I narrow the scope down to that would give lots of options for size, availability, & price? I’m honestly not that familiar with them, although I already have a small amount of 11 & 16 in use in the shop. I’d want something that had good repeatability/consistency, preferably in an actual D1-3 chuck style (similar to the 2J chuck I have currently.

I would definitely get larger ER35 or 40. They give the widest range of options and sizes. I only use collets for smaller stuff, 1" or less and a chuck 3 or 4 jaw for stuff over 1" . I'm a maint hack, not a trade machinist, so I don't need to get carried away with breathtaking accuracy. I do get exceptional repeatability even with my Asian made ER collets. I think I picked them up from Travers. Compared to the 5C's, there don't seem to be a lot of the, but they hit everything I need. You'd have to do the leg work on tracking down what you'd need for holders as there are just to many out there now and at all price points, so that's kind of personal. I saw you posted that you want to use collets for larger size work, so ya, The 5C is probably a better option, but get a storage tray that can hold a LOT of collets. We have two roller table at work with 5C collets and I've yet to count them up. LOTS of them. Good luck. Don

 

[Toolmaker51]

Tooling up my 10EE is along those parameters mentioned. ER's can do repeat, but you'll need to build a good stop for the spindle bore when absolute dimensions occur that end. There are ways to 'preload' the material before tightening, often just a spring. ER's have the best range per size, but to cover what a single 5C chuck does might be 2 or 3 ER.
Finger collets way better for hex and squares, or blanks for odd rectangles, D-shapes etc. Possible in ER, only after making split bushing.
While Skulsky Machinery (Harbor & Artesia Fwy's, Gardena CA) backed out of business, both Sr. & Jr.bestowed deals of the century on this younger me acquiring a tooling library, 5C's and means to affix them on mills and grinders.
A long, long time before having sights on 'the' lathe. First off, not all lathes have covers suitable for a drawtube. Some, no one will have a drawtube in regular stock. Some are problematic attaching a headstock lever. Some are spindles with less than widespread designs.
Its a circus.
That path went differently, being D1-6. First was a used Jacobs RubberFlex, good specs, good performance, compact, even portable. Then a dang near full set of Hardinge 215, longer than 2J, same concept, 5C on steroids. Finding a chuck took forever, but two appeared days apart, D1-3 & D1-6, after buying the 10EE. Same collets in Pacemaker? Hell yeah.
Both are pinion key chucks with floating sleeve, far more capacity than 5C, and clean used collets not impossible to find. Don't search for them 215's, I might have the only two known chucks, lol.
Keep Jacobs, yes. Perspective on tooling same as I see machines; none perfect on everything, all have a best application.
If a lathe dropped from sky, with a sign "Tool Me", I'd account how many spindles I have in same configuration (not a fan of L mount, if it was might have them hoist it back up).
Not her, obviously.

Not her, obviously.
Starting from Ground Zero, I'd hit auction sites, READY for a complete rig in spindle nose configuration needed.
Ready is after study of costs and benefits. You know, used but complete vs shiny and bit by bit.
READY is cash in hand.
That's all I can testify without burning dinner.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Think the ER system is seductive. Limited collets needed to cover a range of sizes. I submit that in itself is an issue..
Collets sized to the real part size are always better. Run truer and straighter.. 5-C are better assuming you are using a correctly sized collet..
5-C's are longer than ER's (better axial truth)and grip with better contact (assuming correct sized collet, not an average)
ER's have emerged as a solve all in recent years but i submit they are at best an average solution..Gauge your needs according to the accuracy requirements of your work..You need better work holding ER is not your best choice.. Look to Schamblin 5-C collets if precision is the target.
Cheers Ross

 

[rimcanyon]

+1 Ross.
Both 5C and 2J collets have at least twice the length to diameter ratio that any ER collet has. 2J collets are a lot heavier than the equivalent 5C collet, and I have seen a lot more sprung 5C collets than 2J collets. 2J collets also have the advantage of a larger size range compared to 5C.

I did some experimenting a few months ago to see how well ER30 collets chuck true to the spindle axis. I found that unlike 2J collets, it was very easy to deflect work in an ER collet. i.e. put a piece of ground stock in the collet, tighten it, measure the runout at the end, then give it a light tap. It was extremely easy to introduce runout.