I recently acquired a Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter grinder, along with about all the accessories except for the internal grinding attachment. It is a 1960 model. It has been setting in a corner for quite some time and has a lot of dust and grime. The table is stiff and I want to clean the balls and ball tracks. I am wondering how to pull the table. It appears the rack is being used as a retainer. I am wondering if I should unbolt the rack, or pull the table out the end?
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Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter grinder - how to pull the table
- Thread starter gbent
- Start date
- Replies 15
- Views 3,017
michiganbuck
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2012
- Location
- Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
You push the table (long travel) far one way and see a pair of Allen screw-held lock blocks to be removed, Then push the table far the other way to remove the other end lock blocks, then return the table to the center and lift straight up.
Take care pushing it far each way because it gets close to the balance point and could fall/tip off the end being out too far.
Having a bench under it when far out if you are by yourself is a good idea.
*First take off the rotating part to make it lighter weight..It is still heavy.
I have pulled them by myself but advise the lifting off is a two-man job.
Free download the Cinci #2 handbook and see this on page 12.
Other:
Check to see that the motor pully in on the slow speed if running surface grinder wheels.
Fill the spindle oil pots with spindle oil.
Clean the cross travel ways and put a swipe of lube oil on them.
See that your wheel head can turn, and Squirt some lube oil under.
Check to see what end of the spindle has the right-hand, and left-hand nut..then paint the left-hand nut red. It is not uncommon for someone to crank the spindle mount hold nut the wrong way and so tighten when they are trying to loosen it.
Likely you will find wear in the removable ball way racks, very often a Cincy will still do great work with having this kind of wear because the table shift is only at the very ends of travel and so does not highly affect normal Cinci work.
The ball racks are hard to about .040 so they can be ground and a shim put under to restore height. care to calculate how much to take off...but mostly this is overkill for most Cinci work.
Many people don't know the rotating table can spin 180* to make it about 2 1/2 inches farther away from the column so to grind larger cutters/parts.
Your cross feed screw can have a lot of free travel and still be good to measure/travel .001 or so... but if getting near one full turn it can slip a thread and lock up..so becoming a bugger to repair once locked in not the proper place for tear down. the crossfeed nut has a lock Allen screw at the side of the base and can be tapped upward from inside looking up inside of the base. That is also described in the Cinci hand book.
Feeds on the Cinci are to about .001.. I have done tenths work on them but after .001 it is bump the handle and count sparks..not reading the handwheel dial. We had one job/cutter that was to about 12 millionths dia that we had to make with bump and count sparks (on a B&S 13 grinder you can dial to .0002). They, Cinci Tc grinders are a high precision design but are lacking the fine (tenths) feeds...But the Cinci is the hot-rod for likely being the fastest machine for most cutter work IMHO.
Take care pushing it far each way because it gets close to the balance point and could fall/tip off the end being out too far.
Having a bench under it when far out if you are by yourself is a good idea.
*First take off the rotating part to make it lighter weight..It is still heavy.
I have pulled them by myself but advise the lifting off is a two-man job.
Free download the Cinci #2 handbook and see this on page 12.
Other:
Check to see that the motor pully in on the slow speed if running surface grinder wheels.
Fill the spindle oil pots with spindle oil.
Clean the cross travel ways and put a swipe of lube oil on them.
See that your wheel head can turn, and Squirt some lube oil under.
Check to see what end of the spindle has the right-hand, and left-hand nut..then paint the left-hand nut red. It is not uncommon for someone to crank the spindle mount hold nut the wrong way and so tighten when they are trying to loosen it.
Likely you will find wear in the removable ball way racks, very often a Cincy will still do great work with having this kind of wear because the table shift is only at the very ends of travel and so does not highly affect normal Cinci work.
The ball racks are hard to about .040 so they can be ground and a shim put under to restore height. care to calculate how much to take off...but mostly this is overkill for most Cinci work.
Many people don't know the rotating table can spin 180* to make it about 2 1/2 inches farther away from the column so to grind larger cutters/parts.
Your cross feed screw can have a lot of free travel and still be good to measure/travel .001 or so... but if getting near one full turn it can slip a thread and lock up..so becoming a bugger to repair once locked in not the proper place for tear down. the crossfeed nut has a lock Allen screw at the side of the base and can be tapped upward from inside looking up inside of the base. That is also described in the Cinci hand book.
Feeds on the Cinci are to about .001.. I have done tenths work on them but after .001 it is bump the handle and count sparks..not reading the handwheel dial. We had one job/cutter that was to about 12 millionths dia that we had to make with bump and count sparks (on a B&S 13 grinder you can dial to .0002). They, Cinci Tc grinders are a high precision design but are lacking the fine (tenths) feeds...But the Cinci is the hot-rod for likely being the fastest machine for most cutter work IMHO.
Last edited:
michiganbuck
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2012
- Location
- Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
The Cinci being a husky machine one can loosen something and bump a table or fixture a tiny tad. One can look over a straight edge or angle parallel to a cutter and see/feel .001 or so to an existing angle/height/diameter with not trying to think it out and set protector dials to an exact place to then find it still needs tweaking.
One can come in to tickle grind and bump to match the old grind and then inspect with the part near right on.
With the micrometer finger, one can run primary and secondary with a quick turn and bump the table..much quicker than adjusting a work head.
Yes, the Cinci #1 and #2 are high-performance (hot rods) for cutter sharpening.
One can come in to tickle grind and bump to match the old grind and then inspect with the part near right on.
With the micrometer finger, one can run primary and secondary with a quick turn and bump the table..much quicker than adjusting a work head.
Yes, the Cinci #1 and #2 are high-performance (hot rods) for cutter sharpening.
michiganbuck
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2012
- Location
- Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
If nothing else one can make a tall V block perhaps 2" wide set at 12 degrees to facet grind drills, straight across the point ns the hand grind the heal to clear.
That just to justify the space ..and have all the other sharpening uses for the machine in reserve.
That just to justify the space ..and have all the other sharpening uses for the machine in reserve.
Thanks for the replies Buck.
This machine (1960) must be a little newer. It has a motorized spindle rather than the belt drive through the center. I can look down the end under the table and see retainers on either side of the rack. The other end is the same. It does have stop blocks bolted to the bottom of the table on the ends of the ways. I just didn't know if I slid it off if I could get the ball carriers back in place or if the balls would fall out of the carriers.
This machine (1960) must be a little newer. It has a motorized spindle rather than the belt drive through the center. I can look down the end under the table and see retainers on either side of the rack. The other end is the same. It does have stop blocks bolted to the bottom of the table on the ends of the ways. I just didn't know if I slid it off if I could get the ball carriers back in place or if the balls would fall out of the carriers.
michiganbuck
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2012
- Location
- Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
I'm pretty sure the table structure is the same on the 60s machines. You push the table left to expose/remove the hold-in blocks.. then push the table to the right and remove the hold-in blocks on that side. Push the table back to the center and lift it straight up. Pretty sure the R & L hold in blocks are the same, but mark and put them back in the same place.
The balls along with the retaining holder set there on the cross base after you lift off the table ...until you lift them out of the lower ball way Vs after the top is clear off.
Re: You don't slide the table off/out...you lift it straight up...the stop blocks removed allows it to lift straight up.
The latest #2 I used was about a mid 80s machine with it having a motorized tilt wheel head, I think it was a Taiwan-made machine. I'm pretty sure that machine still had the same setup.
I beleave from about 1942 to the very last #2 were the same.
Before that date (32 to 40?) they had the long travel riding on a chain that dipped in oil...with a long precision bar down the center that thee table held center with 4 bearings that ran on the rail.
When you push a certain distance the balls cant roll so the top just slides over the balls, it is about 10" that they incur sliding.
The balls along with the retaining holder set there on the cross base after you lift off the table ...until you lift them out of the lower ball way Vs after the top is clear off.
Re: You don't slide the table off/out...you lift it straight up...the stop blocks removed allows it to lift straight up.
The latest #2 I used was about a mid 80s machine with it having a motorized tilt wheel head, I think it was a Taiwan-made machine. I'm pretty sure that machine still had the same setup.
I beleave from about 1942 to the very last #2 were the same.
Before that date (32 to 40?) they had the long travel riding on a chain that dipped in oil...with a long precision bar down the center that thee table held center with 4 bearings that ran on the rail.
When you push a certain distance the balls cant roll so the top just slides over the balls, it is about 10" that they incur sliding.
wood2steel
Cast Iron
- Joined
- May 17, 2013
- Location
- georgia
gbent,
Send me a PM with contact info; I believe I have a couple photos of underside of my cinncy 2MT showing ball carriers that may give you a bit of insight
Send me a PM with contact info; I believe I have a couple photos of underside of my cinncy 2MT showing ball carriers that may give you a bit of insight
wood2steel
Cast Iron
- Joined
- May 17, 2013
- Location
- georgia
I really enjoy my 2-- Brown & Sharp # 10's , but that cinncy has 'high heels and a tight skirt'; as Michigan buck said; she is SWEET!!
You've got yourself a nice solid rig there!
Btw; I've got nice stash of sopko arbor adapters here if you come up short
You've got yourself a nice solid rig there!
Btw; I've got nice stash of sopko arbor adapters here if you come up short
michiganbuck
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2012
- Location
- Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
The hold-down blocks are about 10" in the machine.
Book says to use some graphite powder on the balls, I used to use a very light coat of spindle oil.
Book says to not push the table across fast because the ball retainers can bump hard at the end and be damaged. In use the retainers become centered and so don't bump the ends in use.
I used to put the balls back in the same order as I pulled them.. just overkill but that seems right to me.
I have always felt the scraped oil ways run smoother than ball ways, but both can run in the millionths so it doesn't really matter.
The same with spindles, I think a dedicated plane bearing spindle runs smoother than the best ball bearing spindle.
Dedicated meaning a narrow range of RPM... and yes a plane bearing needs some warm-up time to run best.
I worked in one shop where they lifted the wheel head along with the whole column to replace the rubber around the column.. The easy way is to just lift off the spindle head off the column take it along with the belt so no need to pull the spindle from the wheel head and drop the rubber over from the top.
I visited one shop where they replaced the wheel head on a "2 with a bench grinder ..it seemed to grind Ok , but I don't know if it would reverse. Reverse is important on a TC grinder, a couple of reasons are to skim off the burr with a tickle grind and to direct forces down on the finger when that helps to grind faster... grinding down can bend or move a tooth set finder so that must be considered, a double step finger can avoid the happening... with he high step registered on the cutter OD.
Book says to use some graphite powder on the balls, I used to use a very light coat of spindle oil.
Book says to not push the table across fast because the ball retainers can bump hard at the end and be damaged. In use the retainers become centered and so don't bump the ends in use.
I used to put the balls back in the same order as I pulled them.. just overkill but that seems right to me.
I have always felt the scraped oil ways run smoother than ball ways, but both can run in the millionths so it doesn't really matter.
The same with spindles, I think a dedicated plane bearing spindle runs smoother than the best ball bearing spindle.
Dedicated meaning a narrow range of RPM... and yes a plane bearing needs some warm-up time to run best.
I worked in one shop where they lifted the wheel head along with the whole column to replace the rubber around the column.. The easy way is to just lift off the spindle head off the column take it along with the belt so no need to pull the spindle from the wheel head and drop the rubber over from the top.
I visited one shop where they replaced the wheel head on a "2 with a bench grinder ..it seemed to grind Ok , but I don't know if it would reverse. Reverse is important on a TC grinder, a couple of reasons are to skim off the burr with a tickle grind and to direct forces down on the finger when that helps to grind faster... grinding down can bend or move a tooth set finder so that must be considered, a double step finger can avoid the happening... with he high step registered on the cutter OD.
wood2steel
Cast Iron
- Joined
- May 17, 2013
- Location
- georgia
Interesting you brought up the table bearing lube;; couldn't believe when Cinncy Tech support advise dry ball bearings were the norm! I'm like you; I think a light coat of thin oil is definitely a consideration! Unfortunately, the Grinding center of my Shop is in close proximity to our Woodworking equipment so we keep the Milacron table covered with a blanket at all times when not in use
michiganbuck
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2012
- Location
- Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
The theory of dry is that oil tends to turn into a lapping compound when it gets full of abrasive dust.
Good to put a strip of masking tape along/overlap the parting space on the column side.
Good to put a strip of masking tape along/overlap the parting space on the column side.
wood2steel
Cast Iron
- Joined
- May 17, 2013
- Location
- georgia
Very True! We keep the air hoses cut short to that area of the building as well. Ha
I restored a tech school Leblond years ago where the banjo gear train fell victim to daily compressed air. I guess the instructor was a former teacher rather than a Machinist. Sad picture to say the least--
I restored a tech school Leblond years ago where the banjo gear train fell victim to daily compressed air. I guess the instructor was a former teacher rather than a Machinist. Sad picture to say the least--
Ok, thanks to wood2steel I now understand. If you pull the stop blocks on the bottom of each end, you can move the table far enough off center to unscrew the safety studs that keep the table from lifting. I haven't done this yet, but I plan on putting a support under the table in the event it wants to overcenter.
michiganbuck
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2012
- Location
- Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
Anyone with a cinci, or any such Tc grinder should free download the Cincinnati operator's manual from Vintage machine.org
And send the site e a few bucks for being there for us.
And send the site e a few bucks for being there for us.
Last edited:
Cleaning another Cincinnati #2, need the nylon gear in the table fine feed. Someone gave it a good whack, bent the handle 10 degrees or so and took out three of the nylon teeth. I am going to take of the stops and lift this table to clean and relube the ball bearings. So again, I need the NYLON double ended helical gear for the fine table feed.
God bless,
Mike Rock
God bless,
Mike Rock
A source for a new gear may be someone with a 3D plastic printer. You would have to identify the gear tooth form and helix angle as well as all other blank dimensions. The amount of material required would be insignificant, the cost would be in the time required for the sketch and program.
