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Cincinnati #2 Tool and Cutter grinder......some dimensions needed on workhead and centers

Mike Rock

Plastic
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Location
Wisconsin
I just purchased a pair of centers and a center gage, for my Cincinnati.....well, they LOOKED okay, but on the machine the centers are low by about 1/2" and are not near the center of the workhead.
Yes, the angles are all adjusted to zero and square with the table. Does anyone know the real height above the table and the distance from the front of the table, where the thumbscrews pull from. My workhead is sure 'nuff Cincinnati, right out of the manual. The centers LOOK okay.....but dimensionally suck. So, what are the correct dimensions? Workhead center is about 5" above table, will indicate it in tomorrow morning. Now I'm just frustrated :(

God bless,
Mike Rock
Barrelmaker and now bullet die maker :)
 
I got a Cincinnati #2 to support my horizontal mill habit, and am by no means a guru about the machine, but I question why the pair of centers and the workhead have to have the same height. The pair of centers have to match each other, but what procedure is going to use them together with the workhead?
I have an adjustable "tailstock" center I use on the occasions when I am treating the machine like a cylindrical grinder and spinning things from the work head, and it's some random off-brand.
 
It is not uncommon to get a #2 with mismatched centers. That often comes from somebody having multiple machines and not keeping the centers in matched sets when they go to selling.
It is good to have your two centers the same. and to have a tail center that matches your headstock.
I have never done this but you can grind the workhead base top-side as an easy surface grinder job. or add a shim at the top side of that base so to be the height of your matched pair of centers...Plus the distance horizontally is important to match (grind keys). and then make your height gauge to match.
The cutting tool height set above or below center is the diameter of the cutter x clearance needed x 89. So a 3" cutter x 6* Clearance is 3 x 6 x 89 =1,602> move the decimal to get .160...*The quick trick is to just think 3x6x9 for close enough to compute in your head.
Many people don't know that the tabletop can swing 180* to give about 2 1/2" more away from the column for a bigger cutter sharpening ability.
Good to check that the small motor pulley is used for AO wheels. and the big puley for diamond wheels.
* and the spindle oil is filled for oiled spindles.
The Cinci TC grinder is not the best surface grinder but in a pinch, with care, it makes an OK Sg with one having thoughtful grinding skills.
Cinci did make a Surface Grinder based on the #2 TC grinder with it having a double long spindle at the front side. It was good for .0005 at best IMHO because of not having a pic feed, and the dials were so small..
Still one coud run tenths with bump and count sparks, we ran one Barber Collman and a machine reamer to about 6 to12 millionths OD, but it was not just a dial to the spot.
 
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bullet die maker
You can make special cutting tools for making bullet dies with the #2. likely altered standard cutters are best to start with like HSS reamers and end mills, so not to need flute making and heat treat, D drills also but I don't know much about D drills. A Norbide stick (or the like can hand dress a form/shape in a wheel. Using crushable wheels you can use a lathe turned something into a wheel crusher.

For one with not having 3 phase on can add a flat plate to the wheel head and set a motor there, and then run a belt to one wheel mount diameter.
Good to have a reversing switch on the motor so you can use both ends of the wheel head.
 
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looks like the Op, Mike Rock is not interested, but I like to chatter on about grinders.

Good to go to Vintage Machine and free download the Cincinnati Tc grinder manual. (Send them $10 or so donation for the book because it cost money to provide that service.)

Very often compound angles are used in Tc grinding and it is /can be difficult to trig all the angles. Going by the numbers on the table and work head often don't work because of the compound effect. Often a straight edge set on an existing tool/part will get one 1/4 degree close with eyeball across the part to something about the machine or the room. Very often I use a 6" scale or an Allen wrench as a straight edge.

For example, when adding clearance to a reamer with the tooth lip below center, held between centers the table protector will often be 1/2 degree off/error..and when you drop more for the secondary clearance the land will not be straight because the compound makes it another 1/2 degree off,

Re: a 1" reamer OD with 9* primary clearance will be 1 x 9 x 98(9)= .081below. add a degree for tilt& roll so male it .100 drop..Secomdary 1x20 x9=.180 below, add to make .190 below. Yes, you can use a loop and eyeball the inspection looking over a protractor at the circle grind/margin at the reamer OD.

QT: but what procedure is going to use them (center) together with the workhead?
Spin for grinding the OD of a reamer or a mandrel, making a test gauge for a lathe, for a quick set-up so as not to need to remove the work head, using the work head index for grinding flutes or the like with having a center or collet holder in the work head.
 
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Tech Ted,
Just got the manual and mine reads 4-7/8" center height, same as the centers I purchased. I need the 5-3/8" height to match the workhead. Matching heights are needed for powered cylinder grinding work, either straight or tapered. This is my fourth T&C grinder, second Cincinnati. Sure wish I had that one again, it had more accessories than you could count. As in ALL the toys in the manuals.

I have ground down regular reamers for special purposes, will probably end up doing it again. Backing off is a bear sometimes. A 'D' reamer and drill is easier to make. Had a friend at Hornady who was a tool maker. He used A10 for everything. Another friend, Ferris, used it under a trade name, Graph-Air. Sure nice stuff to work with. Diehl Tool Steel, Inc. carries it for a good price.

I don't know why Cincinnati changed center height, or when. Does anyone know when? This grinder is not the flat internal, low motor one, but has the motor built in the top, driving the spindle with a cog belt.

Thanks for the tips on backing off and grinder angles!

God bless,
Mike Rock

It was not that I wasn't interested, just don't get out that often :)

 
With a motorized wheel-head it is likely the tilt-head design, a nice machine.
Still, it is not uncommon to avoid tilting the head because that can consume time getting back to dead 90*
QT Op: (Backing off is a bear sometimes)
Often you roll the cutter/reamer/drill below center(or above) to get clearance and set your tooth rest finger there. that is in the manual...and with tilt head, you can tilt the wheel head, or the work head.

Backing off The OD of a spiral/twist can seem difficult, so one can swing the wheel head so thr face of the cup wheel takes on a radius .. then you can align the tool to where the angle you want is at the cutter. A tooth rest on slanting down tool /cutter face can tend to bend the tooth rest finger.. To avoid this you set your tool/cutter face horizontally so to be pushing the finger straight down so it becomes very solid .. then you raise the wheel height so the cutter is even with the clearance you want. You can roll the cutter along the tooh-rest finger as you long travel the table so to follow that edge for the length of the cutter. This action is called using a riding finger.

It is not a bad idea to have a gauge bar (like a cut off 6" scale) with a 5, 8, + 10* end angle so you can hold it to your wheel so as to eyeball the wheel edge angle.

Yes, you need one tail stock that matches your work head. you may need to fudge one up, perhaps make a weldment make-up. You still need two machining centers

QT (:I don't know why Cincinnati changed center height,) Think they changed the height about 1942 and 1971.
I have made chambering reamers on a #2 but now dont have all the checking gear for that.
 
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