Cincinnati Milacron 207MK horizontal mill powerfeed issue

[matthall9815]

Hello Everyone,
Has anyone ever worked on the powerfeed controls of a 207MK? I'm having trouble getting to the internals of the feed selector, and clutch. My assumption was that one of the plates would give access to the unit from the top or side, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm guessing either the entire front unit comes off in one piece, or somehow everything is accessible through the opening when the controls are removed. My fear is that by taking it off that way I'll be cluttering the floor with a bunch of loose parts. Anyone with a diagram, or experience with this mill help would be appreciated.

We're just cutting a full length keyway. Power feed stopped 9' into a 12' shaft with the table somewhere in the middle. Three days later when I went to troubleshoot it, the powerfeed worked fine making me think it must be a clutch issue . About 8' or so into the next shaft the table would not start feeding after resetting. I have removed the table, and you can stop the feed gear with your fingers, same thing with the shaft that drives it on the side of the saddle. All rapid feed and manual feeds still work fine. .
Thanks,
Matt

 

[Brian@VersaMil]

You have a hydraulically operated milling machine. When I was using a 207MK a lot many years ago, I posted quite a bit of information on them- do a search.
The feeds and rapids are operated by clutches, which rely on hydraulic pressure to work. There is an INLET filter to the hydraulic system hiding inside the knee, that if it gets plugged, and it DOES, you lose pressure and feeds. On the right side of the knee at the back there is access to it, along with the more visible filter.

MOST problems require removing the front of the knee, which brings out almost everything as an assembly. It's NOT very hard to pull it out. But the clutch packs require some disassembly, and I'm not sure if "parts and parts" is still in business.

I quit using my problematic 207MK horizontal mill with Vertical head, after the THIRD time of pulling out the knee. I currently still use a 207MK Vertical mill that, was CNC but I converted to a push button operated manual machine. Works great. I also purchased another with a powered overarm, that I may be getting into this summer. My original run hard horizontal has the knee out, so everything is exposed. Do you have MANUALS? There are pressure ports to install pressure gages to aid in diagnosis. because of these test ports I realized I was losing pressure. I KEPT the original horizontal, because despite it's problems, is a heck of a machine.

 

[matthall9815]

I appreciate you getting back to me. The only manuals I have are the electrical schematics that were in the door, and a 2mk 207mk pdf I downloaded which has a lot of general information about startup, and identification of the controls but nothing more technical than that. It sound like you're saying it's safe to take the front box where the controls are mounted off of the knee. My biggest worry was the backside of the shafts would be unsupported, and I'd be left with a mess to put back together. I'll work through the hydraulics on Saturday, and go from there. Is there a decent source for parts. Right off the bat I need to replace all the lubricator line filters, the ones under the table. Not sure what to even call those. Thanks again.

 

[Brian@VersaMil]

Your lubrication system uses Bijur metering parts- readily available. I think Bijur sells direct at list price. Look at them carefully and each one has a part number stamped on it. They are not ALL the same as different locations require more or less oil. Bijur's web site use to be good and has listings for all of your lubrication parts. The knee comes out as a complete assembly, with the back sides of the shafts supported. Not sure on the source of parts. The company I used for new clutch packs was called Parts and Parts. Like I said in my first post- not sure if they're still with us or not. I've been blissfully using my ex-cnc vertical mill with no real problems for several years, so haven't been frustrated looking for parts.

I removed my knee the first go around because my clutch packs were worn out. My Mill came from a GM plant, and I'm sure it ran day and night. These mills are no where near as stout as the older Cincinnati mills from the forties and fifties. But despite their limitations, I still use mine to rough out castings before I run them in my by comparison- wimpy forty taper cnc machining center. While handling parts once is the goal, being able to peel off a hundred thousanths of iron, and quickly sweep up the chips, still saves time.

 

[matthall9815]

Hi Brian,
If you don't mind I'm going to bug you with one more group of questions. I've got the knee out, am having a little trouble removing the clutch assembly. I've removed the nut washer and bearing from back side. I assume the larger ring on the front of this shaft is threaded, but I have not been able to apply enough force to turn it. I'm at the point where I concerned about applying more force. Can you confirm how that part come out (see the bottom picture)? Also, are the 3 clutch pieces held to the shaft by anything? I don't see anything that looks like a retaining ring, there are 3 holes in each of the two outer sections, but I cannot see well enough to tell if there is a set screw. All three pieces seem to spin on the shaft, so I'm not sure what I'm looking at until I get them apart.
Thanks Again

 

[Brian@VersaMil]

Amazing how many days goes by so quickly without checking into Practical Machinist. I hate to plead ignorance, but it's been15 to twenty years since I replaced the clutches. Now I DO have the manuals and parts books for this mill. Are you attempting the repair with ZERO documentation? I can certainly look at my parts manual, and try and make a determination. You responded at this point 13 days ago- do you still need help? I HAVE this mill in my boneyard with the knee parts just stuffed into the housing, just to save room. I CAn remove it.

 

[Brian@VersaMil]

Obviously you have seen the screen filter in your mill that feeds the hydraulic system- How bad did it look??

 

[matthall9815]

I am working on this with no documentation other than the general manual I have downloaded. There is no change since my last post. The piece holding the front of this clutch shaft in is not budging under the force applied, and I'm concerned about using more without knowing if it screws in or presses in.

 

[matthall9815]

So far as the screen goes I haven't pulled it out yet, but it still seem that the clutch is the issue. It is not immediately apparent to me how the clutch functions, but all 3 parts of the drum will spin on the shaft, and I can hold the 1st gear that mates with the drive system while spinning the shaft the table. My assumption was that the center drum would be fixed, and the clutches would engage with that, but until I can disassemble those pieces I can only guess. Until I find the part numbers, and actually get this apart I'll be busy thinking up new excuses why the shafts are late.

 

[Brian@VersaMil]

Sorry-missed another day of checking PM. I'll dig out my manuals and see if I can determine what is holding the shaft. I don't remember whether I replaced ALL of the clutches or one, I'd bet i did all of them. One of my gears was trashed also, so I had to pretty much dismantle everything. Have you found a source for parts?

 

[matthall9815]

I don't see very much wear on the gears, and the oil looked new. I manipulated the drives by hand, and it moved through all the different speeds very well. Like I mentioned in my previous message it's concerning that the clutch doesn't operate the way I expected. Should the center drum be fixed to the shaft, and the two outer drums use the clutch disks to engage with that drum?
My requests for parts has not gotten me anywhere yet. The 3 or 4 companies have emailed back for part numbers which I am unable to provide. I just haven't found the correct source yet. Any information you could provide would be helpful. We've got at least 2 or 3 full days worth of shafts to key, so hopefully it won't be down much longer.

 

[Brian@VersaMil]

Hey I got out my service parts manual which is around 200 pages. Doing a repair of this magnitude without a manual, and almost zero information is
pretty risky. So I waded through the manual and found the relevant pages that show the clutches. The shaft is supposed to come out the FRONT of the box, after removing the back retaining nut washer and bearing. The part that is still in your front housing that has the two holes in the center needs to be removed. Behind it is a snap ring that also needs to be removed. The book says the gears don't get removed from the shaft, but i don't know how they would fit through the rather small front bore of the housing. Removing the shaft, the clutch packs just drop into the housing. The center portion is keyed to the shaft Push comes to shove you should call me and we can figure out a way to get you some information. I can't write an entire book. I can take pictures with my cell phone and send them to you. Look up VersaMil on the web and you'll get my number.

Having rapids but no feed would certainly make you either think the feed clutches MAY be bad, but you have to understand, EVERYTHING in this machine is electrically controlled by the series of solenoids on the left side of the knee, and I think the feed and rapid solenoids on the right side. These ALL have a small button that is clearly visible and moves when that solenoid is operated. A little too late at this point for a visual check. Doing hydraulic pressure checks before major surgery, would have been a smart move. I have COPIOUS notes from my adventures written into the hydraulic section of my manual for quick reference.

Just call- this takes ways too much time

 

[matthall9815]

So it's finally warm enough to work on this again. There was no issue with the key or keyway. The center clutch drum has two pieces. The inner is fixed to the shaft, and the outer spins freely until the clutches are engaged. Attached are pictures of the disks if you can tell from them whether they look to be in poor condition or not. The Machinist that set this up likely used a standard H0, H1, or H2 hydraulic fluid. I'm fairly certain that he did add some if not change the the fluid entirely. Not sure if introducing that would cause a clutch failure. I have sent a quote request to partsnparts to see if they can provide the clutches. Thanks again for your time.