aj
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- May 12, 2006
- Location
- Burlington, North Carolina
There's two right next to the ones labeled T2CL and T2UCL that are labeled T1CL and T1UCL. OP said that turret was working fine.
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Citizen Cincom F16 help needed
- Thread starter Desmato
- Start date
- Replies 41
- Views 2,348
aj
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- May 12, 2006
- Location
- Burlington, North Carolina
I found this page whilst ruttin' around in the diagnostic manual. Maybe it'll help.
Ox
Diamond
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2002
- Location
- Northwest Ohio
Ok, back from vacation...
As others have posted, on my machine the Turrets are solidly mounted along with the guide bushing assy. and all move as one in the Z-axis. the 2 turrets also move together as one in the X-axis. (It IS a swiss)
The shot pins ARE driven by hydro lines and valves on the back. I see 3 lines at the Shot pin block but determining which of the 12 or so valves in the back controls which is a hard one unless I pull the back panels all apart and manually trace hydro lines, tho that may be the next step. I do have ice-cube relays in the panel, of which I have ZERO way to identify which are what (No service manual). I can start replacing on at a time with a spare and see what happens. I also have ZERO idea what the specific fuses control or what the proper values are supposed to be.
The Z-axis alarm does not happen in the same spot of the program every time, nor on the same tool, but it typically IS when threading as there are 18 passes in that particular program, so more opportunity to 'fail' (~80% of the time). I don't believe it's due to any burr as I keep the guide bushing a tad loose and compensate in my turning/threading dimensions. I am currently making 1/4-28 dome head screws in 5/16" 1215 hex stock (Delta planer/jointer knife lock screws) and I make them by the 1k but only get about 70-80 before it tosses an alarm and I have to coddle it back to work. I have it taking .003 per pass on threading and about .040 on the turning pass which rarely errors so I don't feel it's a load issue. again, maybe just goop on the commutator or in the encoder ????
These 2 items are really the only issue I am having with the machine, aside from my lack of knowledge programing it. I could use a teacher in proper setting of the tool offsets and general machine settings etc. I have the TP-1000 tool setter but I can never get it correct when I set them in the machine. but that's grounds for a NEW thread.
As others have posted, on my machine the Turrets are solidly mounted along with the guide bushing assy. and all move as one in the Z-axis. the 2 turrets also move together as one in the X-axis. (It IS a swiss)
The shot pins ARE driven by hydro lines and valves on the back. I see 3 lines at the Shot pin block but determining which of the 12 or so valves in the back controls which is a hard one unless I pull the back panels all apart and manually trace hydro lines, tho that may be the next step. I do have ice-cube relays in the panel, of which I have ZERO way to identify which are what (No service manual). I can start replacing on at a time with a spare and see what happens. I also have ZERO idea what the specific fuses control or what the proper values are supposed to be.
The Z-axis alarm does not happen in the same spot of the program every time, nor on the same tool, but it typically IS when threading as there are 18 passes in that particular program, so more opportunity to 'fail' (~80% of the time). I don't believe it's due to any burr as I keep the guide bushing a tad loose and compensate in my turning/threading dimensions. I am currently making 1/4-28 dome head screws in 5/16" 1215 hex stock (Delta planer/jointer knife lock screws) and I make them by the 1k but only get about 70-80 before it tosses an alarm and I have to coddle it back to work. I have it taking .003 per pass on threading and about .040 on the turning pass which rarely errors so I don't feel it's a load issue. again, maybe just goop on the commutator or in the encoder ????
These 2 items are really the only issue I am having with the machine, aside from my lack of knowledge programing it. I could use a teacher in proper setting of the tool offsets and general machine settings etc. I have the TP-1000 tool setter but I can never get it correct when I set them in the machine. but that's grounds for a NEW thread.
Ox
Diamond
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2002
- Location
- Northwest Ohio
RPM on your threading?
------------------
Think Snow Eh!
Ox
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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
aj
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- May 12, 2006
- Location
- Burlington, North Carolina
I had a look while our F20 was running. The second and third valve down from the top in the back (Daiken) valves are the ones that clamp/unclamp the turrets. The 2nd one down is for the upper turret and the 3rd one down is for the lower turret. They have indicator lights to tell you when they're energized. That'd be where I'd start.
As far as the ice cube relays, our F20 has labels that say things like T2CL and T2UNCL. (See previous post).
~aj
As far as the ice cube relays, our F20 has labels that say things like T2CL and T2UNCL. (See previous post).
~aj
Update....
There are relays labeled T1CL & T2CL , T1NA & T1NB then a bunch of others with acronyms I can't fathom. The T2CL does "work" and i swapped it with another just to see, Still no luck on the turret shot pin. I do have a 1.0A fuse (F9) that popped and did the same with the replacement, BUT.. this fuse was NOT blown until a few days ago.
Next, I'm not sure the above diagnostic chart is correct with the numbers for my machine
138.5=0 but my #1 turret works
16.2 & 17.2 ..... there are no =X after those (on mine, 16.2 = 0 17.2 = 0)
52.2 = 0 & 52.3 = 1 on my machine (that says I need a new "NC PC board" but which is that ?
Lamp MV-7b & MV-8b ??? where are these
My valves do not have lights that I could see.
I did call Citizen for manuals again and still have not heard back.
There are relays labeled T1CL & T2CL , T1NA & T1NB then a bunch of others with acronyms I can't fathom. The T2CL does "work" and i swapped it with another just to see, Still no luck on the turret shot pin. I do have a 1.0A fuse (F9) that popped and did the same with the replacement, BUT.. this fuse was NOT blown until a few days ago.
Next, I'm not sure the above diagnostic chart is correct with the numbers for my machine
138.5=0 but my #1 turret works
16.2 & 17.2 ..... there are no =X after those (on mine, 16.2 = 0 17.2 = 0)
52.2 = 0 & 52.3 = 1 on my machine (that says I need a new "NC PC board" but which is that ?
Lamp MV-7b & MV-8b ??? where are these
My valves do not have lights that I could see.
I did call Citizen for manuals again and still have not heard back.
Last edited:
latheman78
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- May 28, 2022
- Location
- Southern Ca Mtns.
So it appears you have determined there is no signal to the relay, so now you just need to keep tracing backward from there. That should be easy, just kidding.
aj
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- May 12, 2006
- Location
- Burlington, North Carolina
Finally heard back from Citizen and I was told "That machine was built in Dec-'82 and shipped in '83, I don't think we can help with manuals, but call back tomorrow"
Also, My valves do not have LEDs on them. I can't upload pics for some reason
Anyone help with what fuze F9 controls ?
Also, My valves do not have LEDs on them. I can't upload pics for some reason
Anyone help with what fuze F9 controls ?
Last edited:
Well, I talked with THE MAN!!!! at Citizen(Tom Melnick) What an awesome dude and knowledgable beyond belief on these machines ! He said he's been working on them for 30+ years and was giving me direction without even opening a book.
Anywho, the F9 fuse is the one that controls the coil for the T2 turret valve "close" operation. (FYI, that combo valve is #5 from the bottom) I did some measuring of the coils and found that one is quite a few ohms on the short side (inversely proportional to current) and was drawing 3.8A on the meter until it decided to smoke ! So, I have a new valve assy. on it's way (used Ebay)
The Z-axis alarm is another story that I need to dig a little into. My suspicions may be true and I will update if/when I have an answer.
P.S. He is scanning the diag. manual for me.
Todd
Anywho, the F9 fuse is the one that controls the coil for the T2 turret valve "close" operation. (FYI, that combo valve is #5 from the bottom) I did some measuring of the coils and found that one is quite a few ohms on the short side (inversely proportional to current) and was drawing 3.8A on the meter until it decided to smoke ! So, I have a new valve assy. on it's way (used Ebay)
The Z-axis alarm is another story that I need to dig a little into. My suspicions may be true and I will update if/when I have an answer.
P.S. He is scanning the diag. manual for me.
Todd
I replaced the bad valve/coil assy (5th from the bottom) and It Verks ! Turret 2 shot pin is locking once again and I can load it back up with tooling. I would love to find some live tool holders for less than the $$$$$$$ that everyone is asking, and I need some Daimo Fuses that are also demanding $$$. I had to dismantle one and solder an ATC mini fuse holder into it. Unless anyone knows of an adapter ??
Ox
Diamond
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2002
- Location
- Northwest Ohio
The adaptors are dollar bills.
You run this thing for a while, and you hoard dollar bills, and then you buy another one 10 or 15 yrs newer for not much more $ than you gave for this one.
And then you work your way up from there.
Don't invest too much $ into making a 35 yr old machine up to date.
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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
You run this thing for a while, and you hoard dollar bills, and then you buy another one 10 or 15 yrs newer for not much more $ than you gave for this one.
And then you work your way up from there.
Don't invest too much $ into making a 35 yr old machine up to date.
---------------------
Think Snow Eh!
Ox
aj
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- May 12, 2006
- Location
- Burlington, North Carolina
"Don't invest too much $ into making a 35 yr old machine up to date."
Not trying to make it "up to date" but I AM trying to keep it going for the longer term. The issue is this.... I can't afford the time, $$ or space for another machine so I will use this one until it is dead, which given the build quality, will only be if circuit boards fail. the need for Daimo fuses, or an adapter to use a more common one, is real. I have 21 - standard tool holders including stationary ER- collets, just no live tooling. Those would round out the majority of what I "need" so as NOT to require secondary processing on the Mill.
I have a '91 Haas VF-1 that is still as viable as it was when new and I will do the same for it.
Not trying to make it "up to date" but I AM trying to keep it going for the longer term. The issue is this.... I can't afford the time, $$ or space for another machine so I will use this one until it is dead, which given the build quality, will only be if circuit boards fail. the need for Daimo fuses, or an adapter to use a more common one, is real. I have 21 - standard tool holders including stationary ER- collets, just no live tooling. Those would round out the majority of what I "need" so as NOT to require secondary processing on the Mill.
I have a '91 Haas VF-1 that is still as viable as it was when new and I will do the same for it.
Vancbiker
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2014
- Location
- Vancouver, WA. USA
Hot gluing a fuse holder and wiring it into a blown Daito fuse is a standard piece of kit for a CNC tech. That way one could use inexpensive glass Bussman fuses while troubleshooting and then once the problem was fixed, install a new Daito.
pat pounden
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2019
i was able to solder legs on to little diesel trk circuit brkrs
