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Criterion DBL-202 question

And better yet is to shitcan all that crap and bring in a new Makino :D We should cut the guy some slack, he's just barely buying his first boring bar ...



Ja, that's a good compromise. Those filey things are not too expensive and should help sharpen up the edge goodly.

All I know is, after I used a diamond wheel for the first time I had zero interest in ever using a SiC wheel for offhand grinding carbide again. And what, you got something against Makino?! :D

The Eze-Lap diamond files/hones are what I use. Pretty cheap, good quality.
 
Thanks folks.
...

I'll look for a C2 or C6 brazed carbide boring bar set. I understand that C6 is probably better for my application (I'll primarily be machining low carbon steel and aluminum).

Dave

Be aware that those brazed carbide boring bar sets
so many times have found to be made wrong.
Look real close, as you might find the carbide nugget
is brazed on too high above center, and the only way
you can get the tip on center, is to point it down, and
that gives you a negative rake. Something you do NOT
want. Best to have a neutral or preferably a positive
rake boring bar for use in a boring head.
Dee Dee Donnie has a youtube video about this, and
how he sharpens his bars. China copied the Criterion
set of bars, and they got it wrong. Not saying all import
sets are like this, but every one I have seen was.
Not knowing this will lead to frustration trying to find out
why your bars are chattering and leaving a shltty finish.

-Doozer
 
Be aware that those brazed carbide boring bar sets
so many times have found to be made wrong.
Look real close, as you might find the carbide nugget
is brazed on too high above center, and the only way
you can get the tip on center, is to point it down, and
that gives you a negative rake. Something you do NOT
want. Best to have a neutral or preferably a positive
rake boring bar for use in a boring head.
Dee Dee Donnie has a youtube video about this, and
how he sharpens his bars. China copied the Criterion
set of bars, and they got it wrong. Not saying all import
sets are like this, but every one I have seen was.
Not knowing this will lead to frustration trying to find out
why your bars are chattering and leaving a shltty finish.

-Doozer
Doozer is correct. Here's a picture of the grinding required to just get to neutral rake. A lot of grinding and not much life left. Sorry for the poor quality picture.

20220119_170626.jpg

These bars are a little more useful in a lathe, but are a waste of time and money for a boring head.
 
I’m looking to purchase a DBL-202 boring head. It has a 7/8 x20 TPI mount.

I see that I can buy a 7/8x20 TPI shank from SHARS. Are these shanks standardized and will the Shars fit the Criterion head?

I haven’t ever purchased a boring head before.
After you get a DBL-202 with 7/8 x 20 mount, you can say that you will never need to buy another boring head again.

I bought one and the black finish on the metal does not wear off. On the mount taper it looks clean, black, no wear.
One of the best tool purchases I ever made.

Once I used it and got a hog cut because I released the tension on the adjustment and then went back to a know number on the dial.
I could attribute that to the cheap Indian boring bit I was using. But it was in a free set that came with the Critter (ion).
 
I guess it's not impossible, but just like Doozer said, I haven't yet seen any off shore braised carbide boring bars that aren't complete useless junk. The much better and correct NA produced bars obviously weren't what he was talking about. When I bought my 202 head I also ordered what Criterion were then listing as a set of 1/2" shank stub length braised carbide boring bars that I thought I could recommend for the OP. Checking the Criterion catalog seems to show there no longer available. I suspect mine were made using Micro 100 carbide and may/may not have been made by Criterion or an outside source. Whatever they are or whoever made them, they were all correctly ground, properly sharp and fully ready to go out of the box. Because of there length, then no they still wouldn't have done all your boring, but there's a lot of holes that sure don't need 2" or longer boring bars. I haven't looked around much, but there has to be a few manufacturers still producing decent braised carbide boring bars, or buy a few replaceable tip bars and cut them down to various lengths.

You haven't said, but that Hardinge TM seems to indicate your questions are more home shop related than job shop type work? If so and depending on what your using it for. It's likely given some time your going to end up spending a whole lot more just for multiple lengths and sizes of boring bars than the boring head & shank cost. A lot more in my case. Fwiw and if you ever have any 2" + through holes, Criterion make an excellent and designed for the job 1/2" shank replaceable tip left hand boring bar for the cross hole in your head. It's probably something at least worth knowing about for future reference anyway.
 
Thanks all for the replies.

Yes, this is for a home shop. I’m still putting together a home shop and saw this like new 202 head for sale so I bought it. It wasn’t a screaming deal but it was a good deal. It should arrive on 1 July.

I will be looking for boring bars. Thanks for pointing out what to look for. My problem is that I don’t think there are any machine supply places in Portland, OR. I’m having to order everything over the internet. Being a hobbiest, I need to be cost conscious. Wonder who sells a good set of boring bars?
 
Join the club, the nearest way over priced KBC dealer to me is at least 3 hrs and almost 150 miles away. At least your not dealing with the extra brokerage, added sales taxes, Cankistan peso - U.S. money exchange and cross border shipping rape I am that's generally still cheaper than what KBC here in Canaduh is. Whatever your buying, then right now I'm paying 50%-60% on top of what you are. For braised carbide anything that's decent will probably state it's using Micro 100 or comparable carbide. But your not going to get it at Shars pricing.
 
techymechy, there's Sam A. Mesher Tool in N Portland (I5 and Piedmont). And there is definitely Western Tool and Supply in SE Portland (Milwaukie). I suspect there are better ones. Other than consumables, these places won't have a lot in stock, so they end up being slightly less convenient than online ordering (unless you do enough business with them to open an account). There are also lots of local supply houses that carry abrasives and stuff like that.
 
Techy, scratch the green wheels for carbide. Send a PM and I can set you up very economically on future diamond wheel needs as I have a sizeable collection of slightly used premium wheels here. Great for brazed and you can occasionally touch up the points on some type inserts as well.
 
Thanks all for the replies.

Yes, this is for a home shop. I’m still putting together a home shop and saw this like new 202 head for sale so I bought it. It wasn’t a screaming deal but it was a good deal. It should arrive on 1 July.

I will be looking for boring bars. Thanks for pointing out what to look for. My problem is that I don’t think there are any machine supply places in Portland, OR. I’m having to order everything over the internet. Being a hobbiest, I need to be cost conscious. Wonder who sells a good set of boring bars?
I'm seriously looking at this set of inserted bars.
 
Car2; That’s a great idea for using HSS bits. I’ll have to look at these.

MrW- did you see the bars with inserts that I posted earlier? Very similar to what you have shown.

I actually have a set of brazed carbide boring bars … I forgot that I had them … got them from a estate. They’re pretty tool box worn from rattling around.

Wood2- I sent you a PM.

Thanks all for your thoughts and suggestions!

Dave
 
I just looked at some of the Borite indexible sets *online, I bought a couple sets over the past 1/2 dozen years or so and recommended them above. Unfortunately, it looks like in the past year they might have doubled or maybe more, in price. Wow! So they are no longer the deal they have felt to be in the past, but still good sets.

*edited - remembering mine were acquired from KBC, I checked there. These prices are closer to what i remember paying:

However, note that the picture is not what they are selling (6 bars shown, only 4 in the kit listed) also, check before buying that the inserts come with the bars. They always used to, but i have seen recently where some vendors are selling them separately. Be sure to ask.

But for most of the past 35+ years, i mostly did what Car2 describes, and still do. Also made a lot of carbide tipped bars myself, when the need arose. Some of the best bars i have had were the Everede type, that take triangular HSS pieces. Also Everede HSS tipped bars, that you only sharpen the face, and gradually rotate the bar as it is used up.

If you learn to grind your own tools for the app, it will make you both more productive on odd jobs, and it is very cost effective for the small shop/home shop.

With a 2" head, you are going to be boring larger holes with the bar sticking out the side hole. Just a length of 1/2" round HSS with an appropriate end ground on it works well there. As Car2 mentioned, round tools can be rotated to change the rake, sometimes that will make a big difference.

Do you have a "first project" in mind? size hole(s) and material?

smt

PS, you were posting while i was typing - that set looks ok to get started, if it will bore the range of holes you expect. I can't tell from the photos - it might be necessary to clean up the pockets so the inserts set solidly. Or maybe you'll be lucky. You might still need to grind some small solid bars for yourself, the smallest hole the linked set (& many insert sets) will bore is listed as 7/16". (OTOH, per my edited note above, the Borite set is not a huge cost upgrade so long as inserts are included.)

& Everede still makes some great tools.
If i did not make my own tools, Everede would be the first place i'd shop for small-hole bars.
 
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MrW- did you see the bars with inserts that I posted earlier? Very similar to what you have shown.
I had missed that. Yes, they are virtually identical. Currently making a Randy Richard dovetail cutter that uses the same insert. I always find that aspect attractive.
 
hey, just saw there is a made in USA brazed carbide boring bar set(s) on sale at MSC, 1/2 " shank 9 pc is going for 145. (down from 308.) worth a look.
MSC # AN7808508
 
Thanks again folks.. I have lots to think about. When I look at boring bars, there is often many that appear very similar. Are these made in the same China factory?

Cyanide- I couldn’t find that set on MSC. Could you please list a link?
 
Thanks again folks.. I have lots to think about. When I look at boring bars, there is often many that appear very similar. Are these made in the same China factory?
Possibly, but not necessarily. From what I have gathered, long before the Chinese started "borrowing" ideas from the the west, they "borrowed" from each other. It would seem that the concept of intellectual property (ownership of an idea) is foreign to their culture, which recently has been the cause for much frustration and conflict. Just my take.
 
I like the radial relief bars. Criterion used to make them, not sure if there's anybody but Bokum now. I liked that Criterion had both 'thru-hole' and 'bottoming' shapes. Kick myself for not getting a full set of both HSS and Carbide. More time and trouble to sharpen properly, but they'll last near forever.

Indexable is nice, stuff it in there and tighten the set screw. The radial bars need some eyeballing. But you've also got some leeway on small bars *when*, not if, the bore for the tool isn't on 'centerline' with the spindle. Every Criterion head I've used will have the heel of the tool dragging unless you rotate it backwards a bit. I took accidently breaking the integral shank off my Tiny-Mite as a blessing to give me an excuse to fix that problem.

I've 'sharpened' carbide with an ordinary AO wheel. Especially if you've got a brazed tool and need to really hog it down, they hold up much better than SiC. Either is really only a rougher anyway.

If you've got a real face mount 'carbide' grinder, a SiC on one end with the table set a bit steeper is nice to relieve the steel shank so your diamond wheel doesn't ever touch it.
 








 
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