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Current DMG NHX 3rd Gen vs New Okuma MBH comparison.

CTFL

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 8, 2023
Location
Houston, Texas
Hello all,

I tried searching the forum for opinions on these horizontals.
The most recent NHX discussion I found was from 2019. Im wondering if anything has changed.

General consensus on trust worthier machine has been Okuma, I dare say overwhelmingly.
DMG has been knocked around pretty hard here.
Saw discussions of "after merger" quality went downhill.
My colleague wishes DMG has a less strict "watch-dog".


COMPARISON:

Both machines (NHX-4000 and MB-4000H) are some comparable in specs:
- 60m/m rapid -- 2362in/min for both

- DMG slightly faster on acceleration max (both still crazy fast)
DMG 1.2g --- Okuma 1.0g

- Torque ( I couldn't understand some of the nomenclature)
Im considering SIEMENS. I dont know what the ED or S3/S6 means.
No torque curve found for DMG.
1700480972460.png
Okuma max continuous torque 120NM. Drops kinda low to 45NM thru 2500-4000rpms. Most milling will be dynamic around this rpm range.

-Both OSP and Siemens control are regarded as top notch.
-Both machines are open to field installable pallet systems. I will have to add PPS later as adding automation initially prices me out.


QUESTIONS:

-Does the DMG RPS pallet system integrate and work more seamlessly with the DMG machine than Okuma working with Fastems pps?

-Does combining NX CAD/CAM (siemens product) with a Siemens control afford any unique integration capabilities? As opposed to NX cad/cam with OSP.
(reseller mentioned one point is that Vericut will not be needed as you have a digital twin within software)

- Is quality and amount of issues really that bad on DMGs?
(Never owned or worked on one but their reputation to the laymen is a "top-tier machine")

- Price for MB-4000H is very reasonable. Anyone know of a ballpark figure on NHX-4000 (machine and rps)?

Thanks guys.
If anyone has any questions I could help answer, I will.
Im in talks with both of the machine tool builders.
 
An NHX with a Siemens? I wouldn't touch one. Not a "standard" machine (they typically use Fanuc)
Having a non-standard machine means your support would be challenging....and considering that DMG-Mori support is tough to work with already, you get the idea.

The conveyor's on the NHX are a hunk of shit. DMG has been here numerous times trying to get them to perform with different types of materials, they still suck. Gen2 and Gen3 machines here, so it isn't like we haven't gave them a chance. If we do ever get another one, it will have an LNS or ConSep conveyor. (yikes...non standard)
 
That sucks to hear about the conveyors. Pretty important for any long unattended machining.

I thought the Siemens was a pretty "standard" control on the machine. Not so huh?

Is your company running any pallet pool system at all?
 
+1 on Mayfran conveyors. We have two seperate Okuma MB5000HII cells with Fastems FMS. One hase 24 pallets and the other has 16. We have a third MB5000HII with 16 pallet Fastems scheduled for delivery next month. We run 24/7 production in almost exclusively Aluminum and we never have chips issues in the tank with the Mayfran Concept conveyors.
 
NHX is a Mori product, not DMG, so JMC is right. I'd avoid Siemens on that machine at all cost.

NHX has a long history of being a bulletproof machine and a top seller for Mori. Mori's ethos has always been: build the best machine they can, figure out what it costs later so quality is top notch. DMG on the other hand builds to a price point for a target market which shows in some quality hiccups.

There are legitimate service concerns about DMG MORI but that comes down to your regional office. Their portfolio of machines is huge so imagine trying to train techs at each office that are knowledgeable across everything. Its impossible so many techs act as phone relays to the factory to try to diagnose problems. DMG spare parts can sometimes have long leadtime. On the flip side, NHX is a very common machine so support should be good and Mori boasts about stocking over 98% of all parts for their machines in Dallas.

Using NX to program a Siemens control gains nothing. It only matters how good the post is which is true for every CAM package. I worked on 840D controls and NX development, whenever they didn't talk right to each other, the Siemens guys would say "different company." Seems silly but Siemens is a massive massive company, the different groups don't really work together.
 
In the "bang for your buck" category, the NHX is really hard to beat. Unfortunately US built machines (like the NHX) do tend to suffer quality issues relative to their Japanese counterparts, but again, that price point sure is attractive...

When I got one quoted a couple of years ago, an NHX with a Siemens controller was a very special order with a massive price increase to match. They couldn't even build it in the US. Are you sitting on a quote for an NHX w/Siemens?

In regards to the RPP; they have changed the design a bunch of times over the years, which makes me nervous. As long as the machine and automation come out of the same factory though, they tend to be fairly well flushed out. We have had a bad experience with a PH150, which comes from a different factory than the DMG it is grafted on to.
 
We have four NHX machines, two of which are Gen 3 and both of these have 21-RPS pallet pools. The older Gen 3 has had some nagging issues, mostly electronics/software. The newer one has been a solid performer.

If we were to buy a fifth HMC, it would be another NHX. However, I have some doubts as to whether we'll ever get another horizontal.

What's your rationale for choosing an HMC over a 5-axis with a pallet pool? Main reason I ask is because you mentioned you won't be getting palletized automation right away. 5-axis offers a lot more flexibility in future automation.
 
@CTFL
From a control point of view it's neither here nor there unless you find one is more cumbersome than the other.

Not sure who your reseller is but you should probably have a look at this guy

Modulus Cam - Grant Clemo

NX Okuma ISV
 
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-Does combining NX CAD/CAM (siemens product) with a Siemens control afford any unique integration capabilities? As opposed to NX cad/cam with OSP.
(reseller mentioned one point is that Vericut will not be needed as you have a digital twin within software)

Using NX with a Siemens control gets you basically nothing. There are a couple of very minor Siemens control specific functions, but given I don't have a Siemens control, they are beyond my pay grade.

There is one quite amazing demo by a 3rd party NX developer on a Grob w/Siemens where they tie the control to NX to feed scan-probe data back to NX and recalculate tool path:


This is like hyper-exotic for the industry right now and you'll probably pay as much as the machine tool costs to get it working. Silly how in 2023, we still send fucking text files to controls and get no interaction back to our CAM systems, but everything about this industry is 20 years in the past, so who would be shocked?
 
Using NX with a Siemens control gets you basically nothing. There are a couple of very minor Siemens control specific functions, but given I don't have a Siemens control, they are beyond my pay grade.

There is one quite amazing demo by a 3rd party NX developer on a Grob w/Siemens where they tie the control to NX to feed scan-probe data back to NX and recalculate tool path:

This is like hyper-exotic for the industry right now and you'll probably pay as much as the machine tool costs to get it working. Silly how in 2023, we still send fucking text files to controls and get no interaction back to our CAM systems, but everything about this industry is 20 years in the past, so who would be shocked?

Fusion 360 can also do this for $1200 :scratchchin:
 
When I got one quoted a couple of years ago, an NHX with a Siemens controller was a very special order with a massive price increase to match. They couldn't even build it in the US. Are you sitting on a quote for an NHX w/Siemens?
No quote yet, just talking. I was hoping the NXH-4000 and MB-4000 would be closely priced.
If I get some numbers I can pass along to you via pm.
 
What's your rationale for choosing an HMC over a 5-axis with a pallet pool? Main reason I ask is because you mentioned you won't be getting palletized automation right away. 5-axis offers a lot more flexibility in future automation.
Good question. These are some of my thoughts regarding both

The cycle times on potential customers parts are relatively low. Approx 30min per operation. 2 hours total cycle.
I felt starting with horizontal would be best way to maximize unmanned machine hours.
Horizontals are the known production workhorses
However, potential customers may not have enough workload to justify this horizontal.

5 axis from Okuma that is open to future pallet pool systems is outside my budget, need to double check that number though.
I am contemplating starting with a 5x NOT open to pallet pool system. Have some potential customers in Aerospace needing 5x help.
In a perfect world, I could work a deal for the 5x OPEN to pps.
 
Using NX with a Siemens control gets you basically nothing. There are a couple of very minor Siemens control specific functions, but given I don't have a Siemens control, they are beyond my pay grade.

There is one quite amazing demo by a 3rd party NX developer on a Grob w/Siemens where they tie the control to NX to feed scan-probe data back to NX and recalculate tool path:


This is like hyper-exotic for the industry right now and you'll probably pay as much as the machine tool costs to get it working. Silly how in 2023, we still send fucking text files to controls and get no interaction back to our CAM systems, but everything about this industry is 20 years in the past, so who would be shocked?

This is of course undeniably cool, but it's not quite as revolutionary as it looks. It's more of a clever integration of three existing technologies (probably):

Volumetric best fit: Proven algorithms and used forever on CMMs, NX probably has built in tools to achieve this now that the CAM and CMM modules are amalgamated. Used here to determine the initial part datum.

Volumetric model compare: Again, already exists in most cad/cam software, used to create delta surfaces or booleans, which leads to

Surface based toolpath clipping, again nothing new there.

Not trying to diminish what they've done, as it certainly took a lot of work and intellect to come up with the idea and put it all together. Just trying to break it down into the various techniques that are most likely being used here.
 
Fusion 360 can also do this for $1200 :scratchchin:
Fusion is 1 out of 3 tricks in this dog-n-pony show. It can (on a Haas, where they have very close post development ties), take probe data in and tweak part orientation to re-post the code on complex 3D parts.

It doesn’t have great tools for controlling axis dynamics though, and it can’t ingest 3D scan data to actually re-shape the part on-the-fly.

Mind you- it probably could do all of this- I think most CAM systems have the underlying tools. The problem is more fundamental- how are those tools exposed and how can you integrate them into a closed loop machining process?

That’s why I find demos like this so frustrating- all of the pieces to do tricks like the above are readily available- but their fundamental integration and accessibility are MIA to anyone short of software developers.

Where is:

1- a solid standard protocol for my machine to talk back and forth to my CAD/CAM system?

2- the scripting environment to let me automate CAD/CAM functions with my machine’s functions?
 
Just putting it out there, the Mazak HCN4000/5000 have been great machines for us. I’d wager it’s in the same pricing bracket as the two you mentioned above, at least it was when we bought it. The 6 pallet pricing is extremely competitive as well.
 
That sucks to hear about the conveyors. Pretty important for any long unattended machining.

I thought the Siemens was a pretty "standard" control on the machine. Not so huh?

Is your company running any pallet pool system at all?
I cannot overstate my dislike of the conveyors. Its not for lack of effort on DMG-Mori's part, we have been through several retrofits, unfortunately all winding up with the same result...a substandard conveyor. On more than one occasion we ran "lights out" and came into a lake of coolant on the floor because the thing got clogged with chips. Or the coolant halo in the machine would get clogged and tools would break for lack of coolant. They put a filter inline with the halo, it would get clogged. It has improved and is better than it used to be...but no where near the performance we get out of the other mentioned brands. Sad, because mechanically the machines are excellent, but if you can't get the chips into a bin, that's a big issue. Thing is they used to put the Mayfran on their older "NH" series, and it is a great setup. I do know you can order a NHX with a Mayfran, unknown what the cost difference would be.

Personally I don't mind the Fanuc controllers. No loyalty to them or Siemens...at the end of the day they drive the machine. Does one do it better than the other? That would be like arguing which CAM system is better. You will get 10 different opinions from 10 different people. If you really like Siemens and must have a Siemens on a machine, the NHX is not the machine for you.

We have the 5 pallet RPP system on our Gen 2 machine. It does not have as refined interface as what I have seen other makes produce, but it is functional & has not had any major issues. The interface thing could be just me used to what I see on other machines, so take that with a grain of salt.
 
When you look at DMG's stock of new and showroom machines there are no NHXs with Siemens control, and none with Mitsubishi either. Last year, or the year before there were a mix of Mitusbishi and Fanuc. Now it's only Fanuc. The Celos/Mapps (with Fanuc or Mitsubishi) is great IMO, no reason to choose Siemens.
 








 
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