Deckel Buyer's Checklist

[Brian]

OK, I've been a lurker and went and saw my first Deckel today, now I'm hooked and need some info. Let me start out this way, Hi, my name is Brian, and I'm a Deckel-holic!

Any way, what I thought would be a great topic (especially for me!) is a checklist of what to look for in a used Deckel. Things like what are the weak areas, is something always busted or worn out on these machines? Are there ways to tell if the ways and/or leadscrews are shot? Doe the vertical heads have a flat coil spring that always breaks like a Bridgeport? Any parts more susceptible to be worn or damaged than others?

I think you catch my drift. Also, it would be nice if anybody has encountered specific problems, how they worked around it, fixed it, replaced it, etc. Where can spare parts be had, manuals, accessories? Anybody fit up any truly wild fixtures or jigs that nobody else has thought of?

I was hoping that some of you more experienced Deckle-ites would share the wealth of your collective knowledge with a newbie!

Thanks,
Brian

 

[Sean S]

Well, I guess I'll start this one...

Brian, searching for a used Deckel is not unlike searching for any other vertical mill. There are the standard checks to make regarding wear and abuse.
Most of the experience I have is with FP-1's, so I'll suggest a couple things on this model...
First, lets talk taper... manual Deckels use an odd MT4 or ISO 40 tooling. Both types of tooling can be hard, or expensive to get, so how much tooling the machine comes with is an issue. The original tooling for Deckels is perhaps superior in design to many because the male threaded ends allow for a "pass-through-the-adapter" approach to making the tooling more flexible. I don't have a good way to explain that, but it was a well thought out system. The problem is that there is not too much of it available on the used market.
Now, if you wish to trade off to a more standard tooling size, the ISO 40 machines can be converted to NMTB40 with nothing more than a draw bar that you could even make from a bolt. The MT4 machines can be adapted to R8 with a simple sleeve/drawbar combo. Keep in mind though, that you have 3 spindles to deal with...the vertical, the horzontal, and the less talked about indexer "spindle" if you own the factory indexing table attachment. So doing a conversion could entail up to 6 pieces that you would have to make. I've made these before and plan to offer them for sale soon, but I'm waiting on a good ID/OD grinder to continue the project. I have not seen any others offered for sale, but the FP-1/Lathes UK site mentions such an adapter so it's possible they exist somewhere else.
Regardless, I suggest either a Deckel with a nice compliment of tooling, or doing a conversion (which is the road I am taking even though I've had a very complete tooling set).

Next, if you are standing in front of a Deckel with the spindle going, you are going to hear noise that could scare you into thinking the bearings are bad. Most often this is the normal sound of the geartrain at work. Aside from a V-belt which links the motor to the geartrain, the whole machine is like a big watch, with all sorts of gears going on...even in the heads.
By nature these gears whir and rattle a bit.
It is possible that one of these machines could have a bad bearing, but more likely from the perspective of someone who is used to a belt driven machine, that it is the normal sound. You would either have to be familiar with the sound, or do some very close audio inspection of the machine to differenciate between the two.

Another thing you may come across is powerfeeds that don't work. Especially if the machine has been touched or demo'd by a "non-Deckelite". The machines have a built-in safeguard against overtravel or very forceful resistance to the travels. This is a shear pin which is "hidden" in the bottom of the machine (but still very accessible), which will break if the travels are overloaded. This takes about 2 minutes to repair, but can give one the impression that the powerfeeds don't work.
In normal operation, you set the limits on the travels so this doesn't happen by the placement of "travel-stops" which activate a linkage which physically pushes that big lever out of place when they are contacted.
For some reason though, it is common to find these stops missing. They are easy to make though if your potiential machine is lacking them.
Something else about the powerfeeds... They only work with the machine's motor turning in the "correct" direction (which is indicated by an arrow on the back of the machine). If you plug one in to test and the powerfeed lever doesn't want to go into gear, check this first. The machine will run in both directions, but the powerfeeds will only work in one. I have yet to need reverse spindle rotation in my milling, but when it does eventually happen, I will have to suffer through manually turning the dials...and so will you.

Another thing I am learning is pretty common is to have the machines filled with grease. In some years, Deckel fitted the oil channels with those high-pressure grease fittings, which I understand were supposed to be used with high-pressure oil guns but would also accept grease guns.
Somewhere along the line, someone lost the manual that states "oil" and the logical thing for the casual onlooker to do was to use what fits...the grease gun.
I have a friend who is taking half of his machine apart to remove the grease from one of his machines. As far as I know, Deckel is not the only brand of machine that suffers from this odd cross-over. I haven't heard of any actual damage being done by the grease yet, but I think the majority would agree that grease is not the best thing to have in a machine tool (unless it's in a sealed place).

The ways on a Deckel style machine are far better protected from chips, dust, and other contaminates than the standard knee mill. This is simply a matter of design since there are no exposed horizontal ways as you would find on the Y axis of a Bridgeport style machine. For this, the ways of these machines are usually in pretty good shape.

Another thing to take into consideration is paint. It is easy to determine a Deckel being in fantastic shape by partially considering the condition of the paint, but unlike most mills, Deckels also seem to well outlast their paint by a far margin so it becomes difficult to say that one with bad paint, or a really bad dealer paint-over is worn. Even though the the quality of the machine is very high, they were still limited to the paint technology of the time...which was not that good.
Anyway, a beat "looking" Deckel could still be a very well maintained and close to perfect machine, so keep this in mind.

Dials....
At least on the FP-1, either several dials were available, or they changed the default dial from time to time. These range from metric, to .001/.100 to .001/.125 (an eighth) and even one more I think.
Personally, I use DRO's or indicators exlusively so this doesn't bother me a bit, but if you plan on using the dials, then you are going to need to consider this. I wouldn't pass up any nice Deckel based on this, but if you really want to be picky...well...

Backlash...
Most Deckels I've come across have a considerable amount of perceived backlash. A great deal of this is in how the lead screws are attached to the working table. They use some sort of thrust washer/bearing/nut arrangement which will allow the screw to move "through" the table a bit before it connects and starts moving the table itself. For this, it can be very hard to tell what is leadscrew wear vs a mal-adjusted "thrust nut". More often than not, it is the nut, or at least mostly the nut. I haven't gotten very far into this subject as again, if I care, I'll use a DRO or indicator. Deckels have quite a bit of accomidations for indicators...the placements are built into the machine, but I suppose you could easily fit a Mitutoyo style digital scale unit.

Motors...
Although the motors came in a variety of voltages, they apparently are easy to swap out with whatever you would like, and from looking at the arrangement, this makes sense. Many though are 460v, so if you want to start making chips that same day, you will have to consider this. If one of my motors ever dies though, I'll just replace it with a Baldor "E" class.
Speaking of electrics... the later FP-1's (and others) have a separate external "power box" with mag starters and other OSHA style requirements. This is both good and bad. If you have room for this, you can set your tooling on top of it, and have a bit of extra safety. However, the older machines are wired direct, which makes for a smaller footprint, and also makes them easier to move...etc, but they WILL start if the switch is on when the power is restored. The older models don't have an E-stop button either, which is a related topic.
I don't have any personal preference on this, but I will say that this "OSHA" box can be a PITA. Then again, maybe it will save my butt someday.

Personally, I feel that Deckels are very robust. I've had about 10 pass through here so far and havent found one that didn't work yet. The most "abuse" I've seen is lots of tool marks, grooves, and holes in the table surface.

I've been lucky enough to aquire some extremely nice FP-1's for my personal use through being in the right place at the right time and doing some trading up as well as some thrifty eating for a month or two, but I must say that I would be happy and proud to own every one that's come through here so far. I've yet to see one that wouldn't serve it's owner well. Of course, if you are of my personality, once you get into it, it is possible that you will start seeking "perfection" and it's not unlike classic car owners who go "oh..wait, this is not the stock rear tailight lense screw". I suppose productive people wont have to deal with that train of thought, but it can be fun too.

I hope this helps to get you started.

Sean

 

[Brian]

Sean,

Thanks for the reply. Ok, let me see if I understand this right, the MT4 holders have a male(o.d.) thread on the end of them and the draw bar that secures them has a i.d. thread. This allows you to use a "hollow" draw bar and make a MT4 to R8 adapter, bolt it in the spindle and then use a standard (i.e. BP style) drawbar to secure the R8 holders and collets. I guess I've never really seen the Deckel holders as all the pics of the tooling are usually a bit disorganized and far away. On this note, I have a brother who has a CNC equipped shop, three Haas VMC's and a Haas CNC lathe, so if a volume of tool holders, copies of the originals or adapters, is desired, I'm sure he could whip up a mess of 'em.

The noise I somewhat expected, although I haven't heard one run yet. I'm used to BP's and Lagun's for milling, but I had some lathes, Warner Swasey Turret lathes and an old Reed Prentice that were either chain driven or the motors idled continuously and therefore the racket was considerable.

I had read about the shear pin on the UK Lathes site, so I was aware of that possibility. Is the power feed mechanism fairly robust otherwise? Are all the gears usually intact? I'm guessing that they are fairly well protected from damage by the shear pin.

The machine being "filled with grease", is that in the ways, or are you talking about the internal gearboxes for spindle speed changes and feedrate changes? Also what and how lubes the leadscrews? I assumed from looking at the machine I saw that the ways might tend to hold up rather well, a lot of length, width, and size of dovetail for a machine of this size. Paint I could care less about as to condition, as I'm not at all adverse to a complete tear down and redo, but I understand what you are saying about it being an indicator of condition, or lack thereof due to original paint quality of the day.

Dials sound ok to me, .100, .125, or metric works for me. I used to have lathes that were totally odd amounts per revolution, can't really remember for sure but one was like .286 per revolution on the dial and then you had the ones that were two for one on the diameter! Digital readouts are easy to fit, or as you say use long travel indicators as the machine was intended to have. I noticed the adjustable jam nut on the leadscrew for adjustment of the fit to the table. What are the threads on the leadscrews, acme, buttress, square? Anybody do a ballscrew retrofit to a worn out one yet?

The motor I wasn't too concerned with as I don't have three phase in my shop anyway, so I fully expect to have to replace the motor or use a VFD to drive it. I already have two of those in use on my woodworking equipment, so while I'm no expert on them, I'm at least familiar with them.

I appreciate the time and effort you put into your response. Are there any spots on the web or places to get books, manuals, etc., that would be helpful in learning more about these machines for the newbie? I would love to find/see some diagrams that show the various dimensions of the FP1's and 2's to see if they are both accessible for me from my wheelchair, after seeing the FP1 I'm comfortable with that size working for me, but am curious as the the size increase for a FP2.

Thanks again,
Brian (soon to be known as 20 question Brian!)

 

[Sean S]

Brian,
Yes, the Deckel MT tooling looks like an MT#4 with male threads on the back and the drawbar is partially "hollow"
This allows for things like the 40 taper machines to use the MT4 tooling with an adapter (the male threaded MT4 through a 40 taper adapter has exactly the same profile as a standard ISO 40 tool). It's a pretty trick setup, but in the end, I prefer the limitless amount of quality new and used (and cheap) NMTB40 or R8 tooling.

Here is a picture of my first attempt at making the MT4 --> R8 adapter:

It's really very basic. I managed to make this first one 4 thou' out in the TIR due to some intitial setup problems and mis-calulations, but it is basically a MT4 shank with an R8 nose.
On thing about this, is that the walls are very thin, and I don't think this adapter would hold up to much R&R, so I would suggest this as a semi-permanent conversion, not an "adapter". It's a pain to get the stock drawbars in and out anyway. Remember that even if you have access to a CNC lathe, you are still going to have to grind your tools.
I think the leadscrews are square, and I don't know of any ballscrew conversions, nor have I heard of anyone even replacing one yet.

As for the grease, I'll let Dave Kochan answer that when he gets around to this thread. He is semi-rebuilding one of his 2 FP-1's and has far surpassed me in the knowlege of their internals (plus, he's just that type of guy).

Sean

 

[Brian]

Nice work, the adapter looks good. One question (not really, it will be way more than one!) though, would it be easier/cheaper to buy a 4MT tanged end endmill holder (about $66 from MSC) and grind through the case hardening and then thread the end of it? Are the Drawbar end 4MT endmill holders too long? If not the draw bar could just be changed, correct?

A couple of other possibilities that I thought of would be a R-8 Snapchange setup, I had them on several BP's and Laguns and really liked them. Another unit that is made by Royal, called an Easychange that also uses a rather short bodied quick change toolholder that would seem to be ideal for a Deckel. Either use your R-8 adapter to mount them permanently in the spindle or modify the bodies on them to go in the 4MT.

Just some ideas. By the way, pretty creative use of the boring head to achieve the taper required.

Brian

 

[Sean S]

Brian, both my FP-1's are 40 taper now, so my memory is fading as to things like "are the drawbar MT4's too long" I think it would work, and the idea about tanged toolholder would work too (been there, done that) My final conclusion though after considering all the options over several months was "if I'm going to start making tooling, or drawbars, then why don't I just make adapters for what is probably the most popular spindle taper on earth?" You could modify the draw bar for internal MT4 threads, but the selection of internally threaded MT4 tooling is not so great. You could make your own tooling, but do you really want to do that for every piece of tooling you want to own? Convert it to R8 and then happilly go full-tilt ebay shopping for every imaginable tool you would ever want.
In my opinion, this is the best solution short of having the full compliment of original Deckel tooling.

Sean

 

[Brian]

I understand what your saying, R-8 tooling is plentiful and cheap. I just am partial to some sort of quick change situation from years of running a machine all day long and spending half the day banging out collets to put in a different tool. I guess it's a bridge I'll cross when I actually get my hands on one.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[nickm]

Originally posted by Brian:
Nice work, the adapter looks good. One question (not really, it will be way more than one!) though, would it be easier/cheaper to buy a 4MT tanged end endmill holder (about $66 from MSC) and grind through the case hardening and then thread the end of it? Are the Drawbar end 4MT endmill holders too long? If not the draw bar could just be changed, correct?

Brian

I converted some MT4 holders for my FP1. It is not very easy.
First, you have to cut off some part at the thin end. Then you have to bore a hole into it. You get into trobles if it is hardened trough. If you get MT4 holders with an inner M10, it makes things easier. Next, make a thread into the bore. Your'e lost if it is hardened through (most are soft enough). Then you turn an adaptor that you screw into the thread. One end is M10, the other S20. But be aware, that the tread in the FP is a "S20 * 1.5". This is, what we call in Germany a "Sawtoth"-thread. Yes, it is metric.
It's best if you secure the adaptor with Loctite.

If you need some photos to understand me (I'm an EASEL), let me hear.

 

[TNB]

About the wannabee DECKEL-owner
I would suggest to pay particular attention to the spindle bearings, since they are *NOT* adjustable (may be like BP's and most sliding quill milling machines).

Earlier models had their spindles spinning in bronze bushings, and DECKEL switched to needle bearings on the later models.
The needles are running directly on ground ways in the quill and on the spindle. No removeable ways. When wear appear, the only solution I know is to send back the head to DMG for a complete -and, as you can imagine- very expensive restoration...

I would recommend to get some tooling in the spindle, and to check the radial play with an indicator. DECKEL's owner manual states that it should not exceed 0.01mm.

I hope this little trick will help some to avoid big mistakes...

 

[Brian]

Thanks for the tips! It would not be something expected in the normal run of things, so I'm sure it could have gotten me or someone else, good information.

Thanks again,
Brian