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Deckel Dialog 11 FP50CC/T SPS error code on startup

Vitran

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
After reading a few of the other SPS errors, I am likely looking for a reply from Malicron saying I should buy a second Dialog 11 for spare parts. I just have the fourth from the end card with a red error light.
RrYzLoz.jpg


The batteries were changed and are at 3.7VDC and the machine has been power cycled more than once. There is only one battery pack on the machine which are two wires extending out of the NSV case. I have the parameter files on a CD and backed up a few other places.
h8cNHzx.jpg


My current course of action is to take everything apart, clean everything again, and put it back together unless someone has a better idea of what I can do to fix this. It is possible that the battery wire disconnected from the right most main board, but highly unlikely. I will look at that when I take the boards out.

This fault happened between December 20th and December 24th. There were no power surges nor interrupts during that period. My guess is some cap ageing, a small piece of dirt, or something due to it getting cold.

I am up in Southern Ontario btw.
 

Vitran

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
I had half success. I found the second battery on the NSP card was at 1.1V when it indicated it needed to be at 3.7V NiCad. I replaced it, but no change so far.

Malicron, I believe you indicated that there are three batteries in the Grundig PLC. I found the one in the NSP card and the NSV card. I am unsure what other cards may have a battery.

t3c9wvj.jpg


I am somewhat tempted to buy this, but it is more than I bought the mill for
Grundig Electronic Ste 2 rack NZP3,NRP2,NSI2,NSP2,NPP4,NGE1,NSV2,NPA1 | eBay
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Seems a smart move if the sale part is good...No way to know if your buying additional problems.
Invaluable diagnostic tool if you are considering keeping this machine...
Perhaps a call to the seller to arrange a return policy if when powered it showed any faults....

Interesting to see this even for sale as a complete unit and it being pretty much exactly what you have....what are the chances....
Cheers Ross
 

Gloryrates500

Plastic
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Location
Cologne, Germany
After reading a few of the other SPS errors, I am likely looking for a reply from Malicron saying I should buy a second Dialog 11 for spare parts. I just have the fourth from the end card with a red error light.
RrYzLoz.jpg


The batteries were changed and are at 3.7VDC and the machine has been power cycled more than once. There is only one battery pack on the machine which are two wires extending out of the NSV case. I have the parameter files on a CD and backed up a few other places.
h8cNHzx.jpg


My current course of action is to take everything apart, clean everything again, and put it back together unless someone has a better idea of what I can do to fix this. It is possible that the battery wire disconnected from the right most main board, but highly unlikely. I will look at that when I take the boards out.

This fault happened between December 20th and December 24th. There were no power surges nor interrupts during that period. My guess is some cap ageing, a small piece of dirt, or something due to it getting cold.

I am up in Southern Ontario btw.



Hi, this is my first post in this forum.
I am from Germany and i have a FP4A with a D11 CNC - so apologize for my English...

It looks like if the monitor in self test mode shows some errors and the lowest line in red- something like "self test stopped because to many errors" you may have an EPROM problem. I guess because the red error-lamp on your NRP, it could be one on your NRP card.

There must be 4 of them, type 27C512-20 on this card. Normally they have yellow stickers on it with numbers in several lines for example like "44209-404-04 NRP 02-IC100 C4-274-B"

You can pull them out by gently lifting the red bracket clip at both sides under the EPROM. Take a picture before lifting to have a note of their position.

So if you can organize an EPROM reader/programmer you could check them by reading out the software burned on it.
If there is one you cant read one out.... bingo- you may have the bad guy.

I have copies of all of my EPROMs and i would recommend it to everybody who still is running a D11.

Beware-before pulling cards always turn of the machine with both main switches or by pulling the plug. Otherwise you may could loose the parameters. Hope you secured them already.

Good luck and cheers from Germany
 

Gloryrates500

Plastic
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Location
Cologne, Germany
Hi guys,

i am reading in this forum for a while and this is my first post. I am from Germany (homeland of Deckel and Grundig), so apologize my English.

I have a FP4A running with Dialog 11.

If i understand right, on the monitor you see in the last line a red error message like "self test stopped because of to many errors" and SPS shows zeros.

Because the red error LED on your NRP02 you may have an EPROM problem on your NRP 02 card.

There are 4 x 27C512-20 EPROMS with yellow stickers on it. On the stickers is a code of the software version in several lines like for example 44209-404-04 NRP 02-IC100 C4-274-B.

May one of these EPROMs is defect. If you can organize an EPROM programmer/reader you could try to read them out. If there is one you cant read... this may be the trouble maker.

I have made copies of all of my EPROMs and i would recommend it to everybody who still is running an D11. There are different kind of (28 and 32 pin) and more than 40 EPROMS in a Dialog 11.

The cards with EPROMs are NRP, NSI, NPP, NGE, NPC and NBP (NBP is in the terminal, underneath the monitor)

If you take out a card be sure you have saved your parameters and always turn off both main switches or simply pull the plug.

Beware of electrical discharging by handling cards and chips. Make a picture of the card to remember the right position of all chips and pull them gently out by flipping the red bracket under the chip.

It also is a good moment to replace all of the electrolyte capacitors because the capacitance of electrolytic capacitors drifts from the nominal value as time passes, and they sometimes make troubles by becoming large tolerances.

Cheers from bloody cold Germany
 
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Vitran

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Gloryrates500,

Where does one acquire the EPROM programs for the chips? I have the parameter files for the machine.
 

Gloryrates500

Plastic
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Location
Cologne, Germany
Vitran,

there is no source where you can download the EPROM programs except there is one owning the
same type of machine like yours.
Thats why it is so important to read out your own EPROMs to have a copy of the right software.
I have EPROM copy's of a 3 axis FP4A 1995 and some unknown files- perhaps from a FP50.

So if you send me a picture or the numbers printed on your EPROM labels, i can have a look if something of my
files is matching.

Your D11 picture shows that you have two NZP02 cards. My FP4 has one NZP 03 card.
That eventually makes a difference.

I am using the "Galep 5" programmer device.

You can find them on amazon:

Galep 5

I know- its not the cheapest kind of and there are better bargains in the web around 50$ from China.
But i have only experience with this type and it works very fine.
You also can use it for PAL / GAL chips which are also very important to read out.

You find these GAL/PAL chips on NZP(03) / NPP04/NPE01 and NPA 01. They are also labeled
and have a special configuration for your software version/respectively your machine.

Most of the GAL chips are LATTICE GAL20V8-25LP (24dip) /GAL16V8-25LP (20dip) You will find some old data sheets from LATTICE in the web if you google "GAL20V8" or "GAL16V8"

Some are from TI (TIBPAL16R8-25CN). These are also old "programmable logic devices" (PAL). Like the older
EPROMs you still can find them on ebay.

Regards
Glory
 
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DeadMahoDude

Aluminum
Joined
Oct 30, 2016
Location
Switzerland
Very interesting topic.
Are the GAL/PAL chips without lockout fuse? I would have guessed that they are fuse protected and thereby not easy to read out. GAL/PAL have latches inside which makes them very hard to reverse engineer, older PALCE are logic only and can be brute forced by applying a bit sequence (binary counter) and logging the output with a logic analyzer.

I have a 1989 D11 FP4-NC and various EPROM programmers, so I might help as well. My D11 software is rather oldish, if I remember correctly
 

Gloryrates500

Plastic
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Location
Cologne, Germany
Thats exactly what i suspected, but there was no readout fuse protection on my GALs.

So i gave them a try and i was very happy to see that it worked fine.

I think that in the 90s programmers were extremely expensive and only a matter for specialists, so that they forgot to set a readout fuse.

I had a little Problem by programming the "A" types. Some of the GALs are "A" type (NPP card)- for example GAL20V8"A"-25LP.

Reading them out was normal but i could not program new "A" types. I had always errors after i tried to program them. So i tried a work around by starting to program the logic into devices without "A".

Bingo-It works very fine. I am still running two cards (NZP03 and NPP04) with types that formally had been "A" types now using normal types without "A"

Perhaps it was because i tried it with "A" types that were to old or were programmed/erased to often...

So here are the LATTICE GALs that i have the jedeg files of:

Card: NZP03

PLD type:
GAL20V8-25LP label's: 44209 610 11A/21B/31C

Card: NPP04


PLD type: GAL16V8A-25LP label's: 44209 640 .41/.61/.81
(now running on GAL16V8-25LP)

PLD type: GAL20V8A-25LP label: 44209 640 .51 (also now running on GAL20V8-25LP)

Especially the NZP03 card is very sensitive and the GALs on it are often (nearly 90%) the cause of problems. NZP errors are hard to figure out because the NZP card has no error LED and is not part of the start-self test procedure.
 

Vitran

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
I have progress from my machine. I purchased the PLC and swapped out cards. The NPC card was the card at fault. Starting it up with the new card it indicated spindle was wrong, too much coolant, sensors all out of whack and all.

I have since been swapping the EPROM chips and I ma making copies of the EPROM to them. I have not finished the swapping.

My challenge is, I have a Deckel FP50CC/T. The tool change does not work and the horizontal/vertical spindle change doesn't work. I do not know if I can get the EPROM for this machine if they are lost.

Below are the new and old NPC cards.
9Q01rQO.jpg
 

Gloryrates500

Plastic
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Location
Cologne, Germany
good on you!

So on the NPC are 4 EPROMs, type M27256F1/28pin. 2 as shown on your picture and 2 more under the smaller board on top.

I have saved the EPROM software as follows, unfortunately only from my FP4A:

Machine: FP4A/NPC card

44209-484-05 NPC01-IC12 D12 4-274-B

44209-484-05 NPC01-IC13 D13 4-274-B

A 4B092 93 NPM 01-IC01 SPS ANWENDER

A 4B092 93 NPM 01-IC01 SPS ANWENDER

I don't think that something is matching. Perhaps there is another guy around with the right FP50 software.

Might be a good idea to create a D11 database
 

Vitran

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Gloryrates500,
I have the machine back together and parameters back up. I am going to take the machine apart again and copy both sets of EPROM from the old and new PLC. I will write out the names when I go back at it.

I believe the top card in the picture is the one at fault. I will do more testing here when I got someone with an EPROM reader.

YAPmtoN.jpg
 

Gloryrates500

Plastic
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Location
Cologne, Germany
checkout that transistors on the left side of top card, if there is any damage visible as shown on the picture.
The one on my picture is from a NZP03 card.

Transistor.jpg

You can also quick check the diodes...
 

Gloryrates500

Plastic
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Location
Cologne, Germany
No, these aren't EPROM programs, these are the files that are delivered with the machine, including the parameters.
They used to be delivered with the orange folder, on two 3.5" floppy disks.
Very interesting- I know the guy who programmed your parameter list "PARA-NEU.dat", line "M65036 VIEHL"

It should be the German DECKEL service technician Klaus Viehl https://wms-viehl.de/

Might be a good idea to contact him. Perhaps he knows something about the version of your EPROM programs.
 

DawidM

Plastic
Joined
Dec 27, 2018
I have FP4A with Dialog 11 and I had similar problem but with second card. What helps? Pull out card, use contact spray for electronic to that socet deep in that grundig box- at the back and that's it. It helps for 2 weeks for me- so best way will be get to that socet and clear it manually but there are too many risk for amateur. I've heard from some guys that its not new problem with old cnc machines.
 

Vitran

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
In order of things that work:
1. Replacing the batteries on both boards is the easiest, but requires some soldering skills. Worked once
2. Cleaning the boards with isopropyl and Q-tips worked once
3. Replacing cards and swapping the E-Prom chips from the old cards to the new cards. Swap cards one at a time. In my case, a sub card that was attached to the main card was at fault. Worked once

Things that are needed:
1. Copy of parameters
2. Copy of EProm files if the EProm chips are gone

The Error light on the front of the PLC means nothing in terms of diagnostic. Card 2 can say Error, but it isn't a fault on that card.

I did write an email to Klaus Viehl, but no reply.

On another note, does anyone have an idea of how to get the ladder logic code of the machine? Can the EProm be converted to a readable code? I am hoping something from that era had uncompressed and readable code. Reason being is my boss is getting ready to pull the trigger and replace the PLC with LinuxCNC like I have on some other machines. This will be the hardest one yet.
 

Bosman 152

Plastic
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Deckel, FP4A, Dialog 11, 3 axis machine - firmware 7.07 ??

Well I am new on this forum, because I have a problem with FP4A, Dialog 11 machine, three axis. Machine was bought at one company in Germany, but unfortunately owner passed away. A few days ago I turned off machine because of maitenance procedure in workshop. After turning machine on again, SPS error occured. OK, I made a call to Germany, then I was told, that the owner is not alive anymore and that I can order new SPS plate.

Plate was delivered as defined, but EPROM's are not labeled the same as on the broken plate. I tried to copy EPROM's from broken plate, where I could copy three EPROM's, except one EPROM, because it doesn't work.

Now I have a serious problem, because I can not start machine with software on SPS plate. I think that firmware ver 7.07 is a MUST have.

You can see on attached pic, which EPROM doesn't work - therefore is unreadable.

info pic.jpg

Thanks for any opinion or info in advance.

BR to all.
 

Vitran

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
I think the best I could do is provide some new EPROM chips, but I don't know if I have ver 7.07 nor how I can find that. Can someone else point out what I have?

I do have a functional Grundig PLC with a missing memory card. I am unsure if you are interested in getting those chips or what can be done. Which model of PLC?
 








 
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