Deckel FP3 - Wiring Options - dc drive options

[alcro1998]

I have recently acquired a nice 1979 Deckel FP3. Mechanically the machine seems to be in great shape but I am not sure what to do for wiring up the machine.

The machine is 380v and I would just get a transformer but the previous owner decided to replace the original motor with a 220v motor and got rid of the 380v motor

The other issue is the machine is missing the AKTIV controller. The plan for now is to get a normal Heidenhain readout that will work with the scales.

My main questions is what is my best plan of attack to get this machine up and running?
It would seem there are only 3 components that I need to get running. 1. The spindle motor 2. The DC power feed motor 3. The auto lubricator.

I am debating weather to scrap the old electronics and go the new VFD, DC drive approach or try and get the old electronics up and running.

I think the new electronics approach would be easier to service in the future and be bit cleaner than the old controls. The only reason I can think to keep the old controls is that I might want to try and get an AKTIV control at some point in the future.

Any incite would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

-Chris

 

[AlfaGTA]

Not positive but think the auto lube setup runs on 110V , or possibly 220 as it is...Check the motor data plate.
The original setup was a two speed motor. Would be nice to retain that feature.
Are you absolutely sure the machine was 380V?
Thought by the time of the "Active" machines all the US versions were delivered with 220v systems.

Betting you could score an aftermarket DC controller for the feed motor and just use the 220 motor as it is...just maker the switches work.
There are other functions of that electrical box that may not interest you...Such as the spindle inhibit when connecting the supplied power for the centering scope. Or the power/switching for the independently powered high speed head and optical rotary table....

Cheers Ross

 

[alcro1998]

Not positive but think the auto lube setup runs on 110V , or possibly 220 as it is...Check the motor data plate.
The original setup was a two speed motor. Would be nice to retain that feature.
Are you absolutely sure the machine was 380V?
Thought by the time of the "Active" machines all the US versions were delivered with 220v systems.

Betting you could score an aftermarket DC controller for the feed motor and just use the 220 motor as it is...just maker the switches work.
There are other functions of that electrical box that may not interest you...Such as the spindle inhibit when connecting the supplied power for the centering scope. Or the power/switching for the independently powered high speed head and optical rotary table....

Cheers Ross

I’m pretty sure it’s 380v. There is a 460 to 380v transformer attached to the electrical box and I think the tag says 380v but I’m not at the shop right now.

My understanding is the machine was imported from Germany by the company that originally used it.

The new motor is a 2 speed motor. Pretty much an exact replacement for the old motor. The auto lube system also runs off 220v power.

I think even a cheap Chinese DC controller would only be a couple hundred dollars so maybe $400 for a full new drive.

 

[Peter from Holland]

The original drive for the siemens DC motor from Labod/unitek is about €600 new I think last time I checked
Without shipping though
That drive goes with the TNC113 controle originaly
If you want to get a TNC 113 on it I would do that
Peter

 

[alcro1998]

So I have been thinking about it a bit.

I have the perfect size electrical box for new controls. I also looked at the old controls more in depth and saw a few potential issues, mainly figuring out what is going on and at least one cut 10ish wire cord. I’m not to well versed in older electronics and the machine is nearly 2x older than I am so I’d have a lot to learn.

I think my best bet will be to meticulously disconnect the old wiring and Completely redo it. I can preserve the old controls in their current state and if some day I really want to get the TNC working then I can. Seems like right now to get the TNC up and running I’d probably have to spend $1-2k which is not worth it at all to me.

I’m not too sure on the cheapest and best single phase DC drive. The motor is 1.4kw. Seems to be a few Chinese ones out there that might work well.

I will also need help figuring out button functions and am still not too sure how the 2 speed motor and gearing of the machine works.

Thank you everyone for the help as always!

 

[Peter from Holland]

I have a aftermarket Italian contole somewhere compatible with a tnc 113 lying around I could sell you cheap
If that is all thats missing

 

[Peter from Holland]

And it works fine beside the active function with a simpler HH dro
Show us a picture of the inside of the electrical cabinet
Peter

 

[alcro1998]

And it works fine beside the active function with a simpler HH dro
Show us a picture of the inside of the electrical cabinet
Peter

The DC drive is there. The electrical cabinet is completely disconnected from the machine. I’ll send a picture in a bit.

Edit: here is a link. I can’t upload pictures to PM on my phone since it always says files too large.

https://imgur.com/a/C9tcDQA

 

[Peter from Holland]

If it is disconnected likeit should it is 5minutes work to fix that
If the cables are cut inside the cabinet it takes a day or so
Every wireand # on it is documented
I had a machine with the wires cut It took my mecanic about a day day and a half to fix that
Pete

 

[alcro1998]

If it is disconnected likeit should it is 5minutes work to fix that
If the cables are cut inside the cabinet it takes a day or so
Every wireand # on it is documented
I had a machine with the wires cut It took my mecanic about a day day and a half to fix that
Pete

Everything actually seems to be connected and not cut. The only cut cable is a 9 or 10 wire cable that I’d assume wired into the motor.

The biggest concern is what to do about the 220v motor. I’d assume the 9/10 wire cable hooks up to the different motor winding to control the 2 speeds but how can I put a transformer in line somewhere to step up the voltage?

Also I use a rotary phase converter. Is it OK to run these controls with a rotary?

 

[Peter from Holland]

The place where to put that transformer will be obvious once you see the diagram Another option is to rewind that motor for 380 volts
What output voltage does your RPC has???

 

[alcro1998]

The place where to put that transformer will be obvious once you see the diagram Another option is to rewind that motor for 380 volts
What output voltage does your RPC has???

I don’t want to rewind the motor. Maybe I could replace it but rewinding and replacing would be pretty expensive.

The RPC outputs 220v and I have a step up transformer to 460v and the machine has a 460v to 380v transformer on it now.

Really all I’m left with is finding out where and how to add another transformer for the motor.

 

[alcro1998]

Was your 380 Volt motor nameplated as such @ 50 Hz, perchance?

That's usually expressed as 460 V on 60 Hz service for the same 7.6 V/Hz ratio.

Same power, skosh differecne in shaft RPM, but otherwise directly migratable either direction between 380 VAC @ 50 Hz <=> 460 VAC @ 60 Hz.

Unfortunately I don’t have the original motor.

The motor that came with the machine was swapped out by the previous owner and the new motor never hooked up so I can’t say for sure.

The machine was directly imported from Germany by the company that owned it before the last guy. The machine has a German brand 460v to 380v transformer on it and the data plate on the control cabinet says 380v.

The new motor is a Chinese 220v 2 speed motor. The owner did this so he could eventually run it at his home shop but I’m not sure why he didn’t just go the transformer route. Would have saved him a lot of time and money and he might have even had the machine running. But I guess if he had the machine running then he probably wouldn’t have sold it to me.

Thank god my wiring savior thermite has joined that chat never did get around to giving you that call… Also side note getting more power at my new shop space so the 1000ee might actually get a proper conversion soon

 

[Peter from Holland]

You have 220volts comming from your RPC ???
Why do you need a transformer then ???

peter

 

[alcro1998]

Really why don’t I just control the spindle motor with a vfd and rewri the three spindle buttons into the vfd?

You have 220volts comming from your RPC ???
Why do you need a transformer then ???

peter

The Deckel electronics are supplying power for a 380v motor. Also looks like it’s probably controlling 10 leads on the motor.

I was trying to use the original controls to power the motor and control the 2 speeds but I think the easiest, cheapest and quickest option is to wire the motor separately with a vfd.

The next question is can I run the original Deckel controls for the oiler and power feed off single phase? The oiler should be single phase but will the DC drive accept single phase?

 

[Peter from Holland]

You are overthinking this
the weekend I see if I have a diagram somewhere and see if it can be done easy

Peter

 

[alcro1998]

You are overthinking this

Peter

Yeah mostly because I have no idea what I’m doing

 

[Peter from Holland]

Even much easier as I thought
The 380 Volts controls can be changed to220volts
So you do not need a transformer anymore
Change the whole thing to 220volts input
I did it vica versa several times
I had to rewind the motor but yours is 220volts already
Just reconnect the transformer for the controls to 220volts input instead of 380volts
And reconnect the big transformer A1B at the bottem that powers the Labod DC drive
Below is a part of a el. diagram for a 380volts machine

 

[Peter from Holland]

Here is a diagram for 220volts

 

[Peter from Holland]

Also make sure the DRO and sockets get the right voltage
And change the Q2F Q3F etc for the right amps

Peter