What's new
What's new

Deckel (FP4NC) Making Repro Brake drums

Hi All,

Seamoss, Can you supply us with the information that shows that Ross`s method of building those brake drums is used on racing cars successfully

All of us that drive fast vintage cars know that drum brakes cannot achieve the same performance as disc brakes! That`s the reason why disc brakes are used on all modern cars.

We are engineers and we ask questions about things that don`t appear to be right, this is what we do! All Ross has to say is that he copied a successful design and give details of this so that we can all be satisfied that things are alright and that would be the answer to the question.

Alan

Dear Alan,

Now I jump in, all though I am not a poster of topics but I am a Historic racer and making parts on my FP3L for several cars.

Why should Ross react on your thoughts? You are only complaining on everything.
Vintage racing has to comply to FIA annex K so disc brakes not aloud when it was not original fitted or homologated by the manufacturer.

Racers race for their own risk and the owner knows that.

I see no reason why the process of reproducing the drum brakes is not good.

I have also a set for reproducing myself and Ross gave me as always good ideas.

Alan please stop whining and complaining about everything! You are old enough that you have learned from your mistakes! Or are you that engineer what has never made a mistake in his life?

Like the thread Ross! Go on.

Best regards,

Michael
The Netherlands
 
Seamoss, Can you supply us with the information that shows that Ross`s method of building those brake drums is used on racing cars successfully
Yes, but the first ones I know of were so long ago that I've probably got it wrong. I think it was the 1913 Peugeot that won Indianapolis ... but they have done so many of these that it's kind of hard to keep up.

All of us that drive fast vintage cars know that drum brakes cannot achieve the same performance as disc brakes! That`s the reason why disc brakes are used on all modern cars.
All of those who actually drive fast vintage cars know exactly who Ross is and what kind of work he does.

All Ross has to say is that he copied a successful design and give details of this so that we can all be satisfied that things are alright and that would be the answer to the question.
Ross has already proven everything he needs to on the race track, so I don't think he needs to say anything to you.

And he's not exactly a copycat, so your method of solving problems would not fit this situation anyhow.

The Shadow wasn't picked at random. That's just one of the rather nice cars he's worked on.

Sorry for the interruption, captain. Most people are very appreciative, illegitimi non carborundum :D
 
No shrink on the spline...pretty much both cut to the same program....Thought it might be pushing my luck to try for shrink on both plain diameter and spline.

Ross

As always, I am in awe of your work, be it the intelligent planning, the beautiful machining, the sense of detail and in the end, the always perfect result...
Really.

The question that comes to mind is how much play did you allow between the splines and how did you measure things to make sure that they would mate perfectly ?
You say that there was no shrink between the two parts at the splines but judging from your pictures, it seems like the tolerance was pretty small in this area nevertheless.

It's probably as difficult to tell from a picture as it would have been easy to ruin both with a wrong fit.
So how much was enough for you to be sure ? ;)
 
Very cool.

I have a question about assembling the two parts together. These are an interference fit but they need to be lined up (quite closely) before assembly so that the splines mate and the parts can be fully assembled. How do you insure this alignment given the initial distance between the two splines?
 
Dear Alan,

Now I jump in, all though I am not a poster of topics but I am a Historic racer and making parts on my FP3L for several cars.

Why should Ross react on your thoughts? You are only complaining on everything.
Vintage racing has to comply to FIA annex K so disc brakes not aloud when it was not original fitted or homologated by the manufacturer.

I see no reason why the process of reproducing the drum brakes is not good.

Alan please stop whining and complaining about everything!

Like the thread Ross! Go on.

Michael
The Netherlands

Hi All,

Micheal, Please tell me exactly what I complain about so that I can answer each case individually, this comment does you no credit, it`s just fogging the issue!

Ross doesn`t need to respond as there are a hundred that do this for him and if he acts as before, will not respond to a genuine concern about the safety of those drums. The worrying feature is the method of stopping the rotation of the lining within the drum.

The cast iron linings used in the original Alfin drums had protrusions on the outside that positively located the linings within the aluminium drum that was cast around it in the foundry. They were not shrunk on111 The design that Ross is manufacturing has no means of stopping any axial movement between the liner and the drum due to repeated thermal shock. There is also the risk of circumferential stress cracking of the liner between the point that the aluminium drum finishes and the rather pretty teeth begin.

Reading through the posts this morning more people are posing questions about the safety of the drums!

Please let us know the name of your company so that we know what manufacturer to avoid when buying brake drums, owning an FP3 doesn`t make you an expert!

Yes, motor sport is dangerous but usually because the testosterone driven amateur drivers in these events get over excited and cause the accidents, Mechanical failure is rare but I do not recommend that the design of components is not properly looked into because of this!

I do not whine!

So far we have had no evidence to show us that Ross`s design has been used in action as all the posts have only expressed personal opinions! seamoss came in with a bang but when asked to provide evidence, he was unable to do so and became offensive in his worthless reply!

What we are looking for, to give us all peace of mind, is whether this design has been used before and therefore safe to copy or is it just a flight of fancy by Ross showing his artistic flair?

Only Ross can answer this question! Ross just be a man and tell us!

Alan
 
seamoss came in with a bang but when asked to provide evidence, he was unable to do so and became offensive in his worthless reply!
Excuse me. I told you. 1913 Peugeot. I also showed you one example of the cars they work on. Others would include GT-40's, 250 LM's, many Formula I cars, lots of roadsters, Brabhams Pegasos Oscas Hispanos Duesenbergs Bugatti Electron, Alfas up the wazoo and cars you have never even heard of. C-Types and D-Types. And ALL of them race actively.

Well, maybe not the Duesenbergs and Hispanos.

Ross'es place is the premier restoration shop for race cars in the United States. In fact, along with some other local people, they started vintage racing in the United States. He could be too shy to tell the truth because it's pretty overwhelming. Ross is a star :) People may as well know, heck, you deserve it. (Don't get a big head. David Love was nicer, you old goat !)

JimHawes001003.jpg


The cast iron linings used in the original Alfin drums had protrusions on the outside that positively located the linings ...
Nobody has used Alfin for fifty years. Not Vincent, not Triumph, not Norton, not any of the Japanese, not the Evo not the XR-750 not Ducati not Aermacchi. Not Fontana not Ceriani not Oldani. Not nobody. It turned out to be unnecessary. The Fontanas had a problem that they grew so big from expansion that the spokes got loose and the handling went away, but no problem with the liners.

Now just shut up so we can see the finished product on the car. I need my race car fix :)
 
Hi All,

seamoss, you did not answer my question but just showed a photo of some old wreck and mentioned a lot of famous cars.

Where is the proof that the drums on the cars that you mentioned were engineered exactly the same as the ones that Ross is manufacturing!

Alan
 
Where is the proof that the drums on the cars that you mentioned were engineered exactly the same as the ones that Ross is manufacturing!
Without exposing innocent parties to your ignorance :

Fontana, Oldani and Ceriani brakes are all magnesium castings with shrunk-in iron liners. For the ignorant among us, magnesium expands more than aluminum, making the potential problem worse.

310 mm and 250 mm Fontanas at Daytona on 350 lb bikes, 150 lb riders, ~ 500 lbs total load, all goes on the front wheel under heavy braking (drums can do stoppies), 156-157 mph documented speeds, 200 miles duration (plus practice plus heats plus they didn't change the brakes all year), tight many-turns infield, professional level competition. No problems whatsoever.

Well, they did have a problem or two. The drums would expand so much the spokes got loose, was the biggest one. Having the front wheel wobble around is discconcerting. And brake fade from the heat. But I've never seen a Fontana or Ceriani where the liner came loose. They used to fail by having the spoke flanges break off if you hit anything, but when the liners wore out people would turn out the old one and shrink in a new one.

They originally ran aluminum drums with shrunk-in liners on the water buffalo, which was an immensely heavy very fast ugly beast (180 mph plus). Even those things have become valuable to vintage race guys, since a repo Fontana is over $3,000. No problem with the liners. In fact most motorcycle drum brakes after about 1960 were made that way, street and race both. But the examples above are the most heavily-stressed ones I can think of. And none of them bothered with the cute wiggle-washer Ross built in.

If you are going to go off on that, I built a clutch for an Open GP bike and connected the steel spur primary drive to the alloy clutch basket that same way. It works quite well. You insist on proof ?

Factory Pro: Producers of the EC997 Low Inertia Eddy Current Dynamometer Series and Quality MC performance products

down the left side to 'stories', then the third one down, "Richard Schlacter"

So the concept is pretty well proven, imo.

Got some more pictures, Rosser ? Sorry for the dumb detour. Your fans want to see these on the car :)
 
My personal opinion is that the drums that you have produced will not be suitable for this as you have used an untried design in their manufacture and risk an unpredictable performance.

*sigh* I - and perhaps yer good self as well - happen to be old enough to have lusted (fruitlessly, of course!) after 450S Maserati's, (owned by others, by then, really..) and yet... most especially when an O.S.C.A. won a top placing at 24 Hours of LeMans on "index of performance", yet had not so much as a film of leaked fluids anywhere on its hard-working motor?

Happen to regard the Officine Specializzate Costruzione Automobili models as the Brothers Maserati's VERY OWN truly finest work. Aircraft and high-speed hydrofoil ferry motators included !!!

That said, fast forward a great many years?

Ross STARTED where they ENDED, technologically, metallurgically, machine-tool and tooling, mathematically, experientially .. and has built ON TOP OF their collective experience... and that of many, many others.

I would far sooner trust my health, safety ... and very life...to ROSS's work, than to "the originals".

ANY of them.

Thank you!
 
Hi All,

Seamoss, Can you supply us with the information that shows that Ross`s method of building those brake drums is used on racing cars successfully

All of us that drive fast vintage cars know that drum brakes cannot achieve the same performance as disc brakes! That`s the reason why disc brakes are used on all modern cars.
Bollocks. Drum brakes have distinctive advantages in their own space, most especially when liquid-cooled - a trick much easier to apply to a drum than to a disk. And then their are single and multiple "plate" type disk brakes. All of the above continue to be used, produced, and earn NEW "design wins", including on seriously HEAVY mobile goods that have long cool-down intervals between infrequent use.
We are engineers and we ask questions about things that don`t appear to be right, this is what we do!
Perhaps for many. But "we" are not all equally reading challenged.
All Ross has to say is that he copied a successful design and give details of this so that we can all be satisfied that things are alright and that would be the answer to the question.
Alan

Nonsense.

Ross doesn't have to defend an obviously well thought out design with superior results to anyone but the customer paying his fees. If even then.

You should get out. More.
 
"some old wreck"
He finally lost me with that one, it's clear he's not just wrong, he's trolling.

Nah. He only trolls by accident.

Core issue us he believes the entire march of technology stone-cold ceased in its tracks right about the time W.O. Bentley first got hisself laid, proper-like, and no one since has half a brain on their own hook for the excessive chasing of snatch.

If even "excessive" be possible on something so fundamental?
 
"some old wreck"
I know. David and George Newell used to drive around in a DB3S. They'd pull up to the shop and everyone on the block would get the big eyes :D Fun times.

I dunno about them 450S'es, thermite. Rumour has it the brake pedals fall off !
 
Thanks all for the input...I appreciate all the concern.
What i did not say in my original posting is that indeed this is the second set of OSCA brake drum i have made using the method described above....
Have a set out there running in a car now for the past 12-14 years with zero issues....Brakes work fine, no failures and by owner /driver reports the replacement drums work as well or better than originals..

Sorry , no meteor strikes here yet....But we'll keep watching.

Thermite:
The 450S was a "Brute"......felt and handled "heavy" .....and yes i have worked on and driven more than one. 300S much better behaved, but the birdcage ,T61, was the real change of pace....

Cheers Ross
 
Thanks all for the input...I appreciate all the concern.
What i did not say in my original posting is that indeed this is the second set of OSCA brake drum i have made using the method described above....
Have a set out there running in a car now for the past 12-14 years with zero issues....Brakes work fine, no failures and by owner /driver reports the replacement drums work as well or better than originals..
Cheers Ross
Hi All,

At last Ross has given us some information about his brake drums which have been fitted to an Osca for the last 14 years without problems.

I`m happy to hear this but he doesn`t say whether these years were spent driving down to the shops for a bag of sugar, or 14 seasons of derring do on the racing circuit, or just displaying the trailer driven car at a concourse d`elegance!

I know a little about how the design function works having spent several years as a chassis designer at Ford UK during the "swinging sixties". All components that are linked to safety are rig tested for the lifetime of the vehicle and then to destruction, not just once but many times over! At that time the life of a car was assumed to be 100,000 miles.

Just for those red necks that have plagued this thread, during the time I was working at Ford the brilliant GT40 was being designed and built at Slough based on the designs of Eric Broadley the brilliant creator of Lola cars. Ford engaged him for two years to lead the design team that took his MK6 car design to a Le Mans winning car. The red necks probably think that this was an American project!

Today the UK is the leading manufacturer of racing cars in the world, the country of origin of the racing cars on the grids is not necessarily the country that it is racing for. To give one example, Mercedes have their design centre at Brooklands in the UK and their Formula One cars are designed there and built in the UK.

Termite! There was no need to mention the sex life of W O Bentley in that fashion, unlike you, he was a real engineer, having designed the BR2 engine that gave the allies air supremacy in 1918 during WW1 and going on against all odds as a David against the Goliath of giant car manufacturers and beating them all with his stunning victories at Le Mans!
What I will say is W O was married three times and you can bet your bottom dollar that unlike you he never have to pay for sex!

Alan
 








 
Back
Top