Designing a horizontal bandsaw from the ground up

[Garwood]

His laser can hold .001" of what?

Good laser shops are good at making things fit together pretty good. I'd say they can be +/- .001" on a small diameter most of the time they try hard.

If they're not trying hard or the feature needs to be round or on position or the edges need to be true 90 then your pretty fucked.

Ellis kinda seems to be what you're making here? Just CAD up a tab and slot version of an Ellis if you like them so much.

 

[mhajicek]

I think the other question is, who is this for? There's a few hundred dollars in bending at least in your sketch as well. Most Maker types don't have multi-hundred-ton cnc press brakes either. Once you add hardware, you're up north of $2000, probably closer to 3 once you get everything ironed out.

This. I've got one of these, and it does everything I need for my little shop:

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00919522

1" blade, coolant system, it'll rip through a stack of Titanium bars pretty quick, and I didn't even have to assemble it! Price was about $3500 when I ordered it.

You can get 3/4" horizontal bandsaws without coolant for $800 - $1000; had one of those before.

 

[Ries]

I kinda consider an ellis to be a harry home shop kind of saw. Its not nearly the saw my 10x16 Jet is, and Jet is not exactly the high end of the market. But if one wanted an ellis, then copying the way they made their frame from welded section, as opposed to bent plate, is probably a really good idea, as they chose that method of construction for a reason. The ellis is designed to be made with virtually no machine tools, and most of it can be built with a welder.

 

[Halcyon]

I gae

I think the other question is, who is this for? There's a few hundred dollars in bending at least in your sketch as well. Most Maker types don't have multi-hundred-ton cnc press brakes either. Once you add hardware, you're up north of $2000, probably closer to 3 once you get everything ironed out. You still don't have a downfeed system in the cost estimate above. Plus you have to make it. For whom, other than yourself, is spending $3k and another $2k worth of time going to be better than just buying a $5k used bandsaw on ebay? $5k buys a LOT of used bandsaw.

Why the resistance to machining your wheels? Do you not have access to a mill (manual or cnc) or a lathe? Even if your laser guy can hit .001 on small parts, once multiple pieces are aligned and welded, it's not going to be that perfect.

If you want internet maker acclaim forever, make a cnc auto-feed system for the ubiquitous 4x6 bandsaws, and make all the parts 3d printable.

I figured you could just bend the plate with a pipe wrench. I have an idea in mind for the downfeed system, but I'm not there yet.

I have no qualms about machining, it's just not within the scope I'm trying to maintain for the project(MIG weldable kit)

His laser can hold .001" of what?

Good laser shops are good at making things fit together pretty good. I'd say they can be +/- .001" on a small diameter most of the time they try hard.

If they're not trying hard or the feature needs to be round or on position or the edges need to be true 90 then your pretty fucked.

Ellis kinda seems to be what you're making here? Just CAD up a tab and slot version of an Ellis if you like them so much.

Ellis relies on a casting for the miter system. Not within the scope of the project. You're right, bevels can really f things up.

This. I've got one of these, and it does everything I need for my little shop:

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00919522

1" blade, coolant system, it'll rip through a stack of Titanium bars pretty quick, and I didn't even have to assemble it! Price was about $3500 when I ordered it.

You can get 3/4" horizontal bandsaws without coolant for $800 - $1000; had one of those before.

Those don't dual miter.

I kinda consider an ellis to be a harry home shop kind of saw. Its not nearly the saw my 10x16 Jet is, and Jet is not exactly the high end of the market. But if one wanted an ellis, then copying the way they made their frame from welded section, as opposed to bent plate, is probably a really good idea, as they chose that method of construction for a reason. The ellis is designed to be made with virtually no machine tools, and most of it can be built with a welder.

The Ellis design was conceived before CnC was a thing, and the design hasn't changed in 100 years.

 

[Ries]

I gae


I figured you could just bend the plate with a pipe wrench. I have an idea in mind for the downfeed system, but I'm not there yet.

I have no qualms about machining, it's just not within the scope I'm trying to maintain for the project(MIG weldable kit)




Ellis relies on a casting for the miter system. Not within the scope of the project. You're right, bevels can really f things up.




Those don't dual miter.



The Ellis design was conceived before CnC was a thing, and the design hasn't changed in 100 years.

you must be very young, as I was running a bandsaw way before Ellis was on the market. It dates to the very late 70s, and didnt get real national distribution until the 80s. It was simultaneous with the Scotchman Ironworkers, also made originally in a garage shop with minimal machining. Both were aimed at relatively small scale fab shops. My local steelyard has totally destroyed 3 scotchmans in the time my Geka ironworker has just gotten broken in. They moved up to a dual column HEM bandsaw ten years or so ago, but they would have destroyed an Ellis in less than a year. Hard to believe, but they didnt have mig welders 100 years ago.

 

[memphisjed]

Going backwards on your parts. Cheap is good- you just have to become highly selective and creative how to get there. ‘Not wanting to give money to China ‘ was part of your mission statement?. If you go Chinese ato motors is making high efficiency brushless motors geared and housed to your machine for about the same as stock sew or lesson drives. Nice people, responsive.

Shrink your blade. The difference in cut rate for a 1” and 1/2 or even 2” blade at material sizes you are cutting is exactly 0. This is proper conservative rates. Ellisss are a very, very, low bar to base your goal at. 4x6 is a solid size to work around with material you are looking at. Add in a few hundred more pounds all around. 500 pounds is not enough weight on the blade to cut and prevent chatter- take a hack saw, saw with all your weight on it. Notice it cuts better up until you can not hold it straight. On a 1/2 (6 inch between guides) blade this would be amble weight.
Add a vice. This is one of the critical parts of a saw. Without it you got koolaid no sugar.

Urethane wheels are for cheap wood saws with no tension. You will crush them in a metal saw.

 

[Comatose]

I figured you could just bend the plate with a pipe wrench.

https://www.americanmachinetools.com/pressure_table.htm

Figure 20 tons of force per linear foot of bend for 1/4". It looks like your longest bend is about five feet. So 100 tons worth of press brake. But realistically, a 100 ton press brake isn't going to be stiff enough to bend straight enough for what you need.

You're designing around something like this if you want actual results. It looks big and expensive, but you could program and make all your bends an in hour. So, a couple or five hundred bucks, depending on the shop, how busy they are and how much they like you.

U.S. Industrial Machinery 250 Ton x 13' Hydraulic Press Brake USHB250-13HM

Buy U.S. Industrial Machinery 250 Ton x 13' Hydraulic Press Brake USHB250-13HM from Elite Metal Tools today. Experience the Elite Advantage with Free Shipping and top-notch customer service.

www.elitemetaltools.com

Even if this was 24 gauge sheet and you could bend it a little at a time with a pipe wrench, you couldn't keep it straight enough to be useful as a machine tool.

 

[memphisjed]

I gae


I figured you could just bend the plate with a pipe wrench. I have an idea in mind for the downfeed system, but I'm not there yet.

I have no qualms about machining, it's just not within the scope I'm trying to maintain for the project(MIG weldable kit)




Ellis relies on a casting for the miter system. Not within the scope of the project. You're right, bevels can really f things up.




Those don't dual miter.



The Ellis design was conceived before CnC was a thing, and the design hasn't changed in 100 years.

Ellis is a good fab shop home brew build. Not a good example of refined product to sell.

 

[Garwood]

It's crazy how many people think Ellis is a phenomenal saw. They're a POS compared to a decent saw. I have a 10x16 mitering Jet like Reis has. It's a great saw for what it is. Nothing about it I would change in 15 years of using it daily.

I don't think you can open source a good bandsaw design unless you made the whole thing out of 3/4" plate. Think of how that Youtube idiot welder in Spokane makes giant vises by waterjetting thick plate sections. You could probably make an effective design if you're plate was monster thick. But then it would cost as much as buying a real saw. lol.

IMO, I'm with Comatose- Put your energy towards an open source autofeed setup for a HF bandsaw.

AF50 Autofeed Bandsaw

The Tormach AF50 Autofeed Bandsaw enables you to automate tedious, time-consuming manual cuts and with the low price, it pays for itself in no time.

tormach.com

Open source this, but better.

 

[mhajicek]

Those don't dual miter.

True, but it would be a lot easier to modify an existing, working saw to dual miter, than to design and build one from scratch.

 

[Ries]

Why the obsession with dual miter? I have been running a 2-3 man fab shop for 30 plus years. I have 4 bandsaws, a coldsaw, an ironworker, plasma and gas cutting torches, tons of hand power tools like portaband, sawzall, nibblers, shears, a large selection of the ultimate cutting tool of last resort, a grinder with a cut disc. Plus a hand hacksaw...
And ONE of my tools is dual miter, the coldsaw, and, frankly I cant think of a single project where we absolutely HAD TO HAVE dual miter. Because my 20 foot steel rack is on one side of the cold saw, we always feed the steel in from that side, and seldom even use the double miter feature.
I have never needed double miter on any of my bandsaws.
There is this obscure trick- you just flip the piece of steel over, and the miter is magically opposite.

If your goal is to actually make things out of metal, buy a bandsaw new or used, which was made on such a large economy of scale that the price / value ratio is far beyond what you could reach.
If your goal is to make a product, the above auto feed feature is a very good idea, and would sell like hotcakes.
If your goal is just to prove you can make something, and money is no object, they why isnt money no object in this project- make wooden patterns and get castings made.

 

[David_M]

I think you are building a musical instrument, not a band saw.

 

[memphisjed]

Because my 20 foot steel rack is on one side of the cold saw, we always feed the steel in from that side, and seldom even use the double miter feature.
If your goal is just to prove you can make something, and money is no object, they why isnt money no object in this project- make wooden patterns and get castings made.

Why make patterns if you are prototyping? They 3d print the sand molds now for that- also patterenless sand molds using robot arm mills- undercuts and all.

Home

Dual miter for pipe, angle, and channel- besides beams are easier with dual miter. No reason not to if you are going to invest the effort. Of course it makes vices a lot more complicaticated.

 

[just Dave]

Think vertical traveling head old Marvel band saws fabulous. I do most of my milling on one before I get to the mill

 

[Halcyon]

Why make patterns if you are prototyping? They 3d print the sand molds now for that- also patterenless sand molds using robot arm mills- undercuts and all.

Home

Dual miter for pipe, angle, and channel- besides beams are easier with dual miter. No reason not to if you are going to invest the effort. Of course it makes vices a lot more complicaticated.

I like the idea of doing lost PLA. It's a pretty cool process, and something I'd like to experiment with.

Dual miter is nice, but imo the real selling point of the design is having the pivot point being tangent to the vise. It's a very fast and ergonomic way to handle miters.

 

[memphisjed]

I like the idea of doing lost PLA. It's a pretty cool process, and something I'd like to experiment with.

Dual miter is nice, but imo the real selling point of the design is having the pivot point being tangent to the vise. It's a very fast and ergonomic way to handle miters.

No lost pla. They just print the sand mold. Robomold is sand milling machine. Patternless.

 

[Halcyon]

No lost pla. They just print the sand mold. Robomold is sand milling machine. Patternless.

I never thought I'd get excited about a sand printer xD

 

[Halcyon]

It's crazy how many people think Ellis is a phenomenal saw. They're a POS compared to a decent saw. I have a 10x16 mitering Jet like Reis has. It's a great saw for what it is. Nothing about it I would change in 15 years of using it daily.

I've used that exact Jet. It's nice. Iirc it's roughly 3x the weight and 2x the cost of an Ellis.

 

[john.k]

I think I have an earlier version ,made in Taiwan under the Parkanson brand,and also sold as a Startrite 12x18.......Its simply the best cutoff bandsaw ever ,IMHO .....however ,mount it on truck turntable ballring for easy miter cuts......just about every one I see is mounted on a ballring.

 

[Halcyon]

I think you are building a musical instrument, not a band saw.

Thanks for your input

I think I have an earlier version ,made in Taiwan under the Parkanson brand,and also sold as a Startrite 12x18.......Its simply the best cutoff bandsaw ever ,IMHO .....however ,mount it on truck turntable ballring for easy miter cuts......just about every one I see is mounted on a ballring.

So I made a big mistake and googled ballring, saw some stuff I wish I didn't. Could you explain to me what it is? Preferably with short words, the ballring pictures I saw are still burned into my retinas and I'm seeing spots when I blink.