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Dialog11 NCP (SPS) EPROM problem.

hassaidb

Plastic
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Location
Algeria
Hi;

I have a problem on an NCP card (SPS) of my Deckel FP4A/Dialog11 and FP4-60T/Dialog11 used machines, the SPS EPROM was damaged. So can any one tell me where I can get the soft to recreate new EPROMS.

Thank you very much.

Best regards

B. HASSAID.
 
Algeria! Wow, now that is a long ways away!!!!

Franz Singer in Germany supports the machine and is probably the closest. Another option is Don Sentner (DeckelDoctor) here on the PM site. Unfortunately he no longer participates in this forum. :( I have sent him a link to this post, however, so that he can contact you on his own. I know for a fact that he has EPROMs. There are also some others here that have D11 machines, but not a whole lot.

I generally collect EPROMs but nobody has given me a set for the D11 control. Sorry.

Best of luck,
Alan
 
Another option is Don Sentner (DeckelDoctor) here on the PM site. Unfortunately he no longer participates in this forum. :( I have sent him a link to this post, however, so that he can contact you on his own. I know for a fact that he has EPROMs. There are also some others here that have D11 machines, but not a whole lot.
FPS in Germany will not sell you the code but they will sell you new EPROMS with the code on them. I thought a complete set of D11 EPROMs from them a couple years ago for about $1,400 I think. But you can buy less...naturally it turned out I only needed one really.

For my curiosity, how on earth were EPROMs damaged on two different Deckels and how do you know for sure that is the problem since you don't have checksums to compare with ??
 
From a purist and legal perspective, they are selling the "code." From a practical perspective, they are not nor could they. The source code for this stuff is God only knows where! It wouldn't surprise me one iota if the source code doesn't even exist anymore!

Of course, what you were referring to is selling you the binary file, generally in HEX format. If they're going to sell the EPROMs it is unfortunately that they won't just 'sell' the HEX file and let you burn them yourself. Let's face it... Once you have the EPROMs in your hand you can easily read the contents. EPROMs, unlike PALs and other PLDs, do not have a security fuse burned in them that precludes their ready capture.
 
Of course, what you were referring to is selling you the binary file, generally in HEX format. If they're going to sell the EPROMs it is unfortunately that they won't just 'sell' the HEX file and let you burn them yourself. Let's face it... Once you have the EPROMs in your hand you can easily read the contents. EPROMs, unlike PALs and other PLDs, do not have a security fuse burned in them that precludes their ready capture.
True, binary file would be more accurate term. And true it is sorta silly they won't just email you the files for a fee. I suppose the theory is you would then forward said files anywhere anytime to anyone....of course you could once you have the actual EPROM as well but an extra step or two to do so from that point.

Having said that, there does seem to be a real issue that sometimes having the files is not enough unless the files were read and to be burned with the exact same EPROM reader/burner and same software. I know Sentner had trouble dealing with the files I emailed him and I had to eventually send him the actual EPROMS so he could copy same to new EPROMS for his "master D11 set"

And there are even other silly problems sometimes...like I have all 40 EPROMS downloaded but now I can read what I downloaded because in the meantime I upgraded to Vista and the EPROM burner software won't work with Vista !! D'oh ! (and the Chinese who made it offer no software "Vista fix" either !!!) Since I have a whole extra set of EPROMS I don't half care now of course...but still...what a dumb issue that is...

Having said all that I suspect the main reason FPS won't email the files is because their prices would then seem too high... when you get the actual EPROM the price seems "reasonable" compared to getting email files since you get this actual "thing" you can hold in your hand ! Nevermind that thing cost less than 5 bucks..;)
 
Having said that, there does seem to be a real issue that sometimes having the files is not enough unless the files were read and to be burned with the exact same EPROM reader/burner and same software.

I disagree with you on that one. Maybe if you save it as a BIN format it is true, but there are tried and true standards that have worked for the last 20 plus years. HEX, for instance, is nothing more than an ASCII byte representation of the data. There is *no* magic to it... just an address, a colon, and some data. You ABSOLUTELY can use that on any programmer worth its salt.

The issue with losing data or c@%p Chinese programmers is completely real and I emphatically agree with you. Mind you, that is exactly the type of programmer I use (and love) but I don't delude myself... I know it is not even close to a good DataIO programmer or other reputable brand. Of course, my little Chinese thing only cost me $150 whereas an industrial programmer (which I would definitely buy if I were doing this stuff commercially) can run several thousand.

Alan
 
I disagree with you on that one. Maybe if you save it as a BIN format it is true, but there are tried and true standards that have worked for the last 20 plus years. HEX, for instance, is nothing more than an ASCII byte representation of the data. There is *no* magic to it... just an address, a colon, and some data. You ABSOLUTELY can use that on any programmer worth its salt.
Note I said it "seems" to be an issue. As I recall I emailed files in binary and hex versions and DD just couldn't quite make use of either standard for some reason, so that was my speculation as to why, based not just on that incident but also based on some reading on the subject in sources that now years later have escaped my memory as to where.
 
Got a good laugh when looking at their website. In the "Products under designing (sic)" section, all of the mills are Deckel knock-offs. I am not too sure how much "designing" is going on in that operation. It is more like copying.

I wonder if these are officially licensed, "just different enough," or "we don't give a rip... we'll just copy it completely" machines.

Alan
 
Got a good laugh when looking at their website. In the "Products under designing (sic)" section, all of the mills are Deckel knock-offs. I am not too sure how much "designing" is going on in that operation. It is more like copying.

I wonder if these are officially licensed, "just different enough," or "we don't give a rip... we'll just copy it completely" machines.
According to Arno, these are real Deckels....the Iranian company was liscensed by Deckel from the get go. Basically a Deckel factory in Iran that continued on as seperate entity after the DMG merger.

The only question is whether they have the quality of the original German Deckels and how the heck do they achieve Active DRO on the manual machines when Active DRO was discontinued fifteen years ago by Heidenhain ?
 
Well, as I recall, the Activ DRO is based on the 8085, which is still available. EPROMs, ahem, don't change so they could easily still be producing the thing (using that universal HEX file format as an archive! :D). Alternatively, they may well have redesigned that. It would not be that hard because it isn't a very complicated function. Nowadays you could move it down to a handful of chips, thereby inproving reliability, etc. When I was going to school in the early 80s, there were quite a few very good Iranian engineers (and Chinese/Taiwanese) that were going through at the same time. In fact, it is interesting to see how the demographics, if you will, have changed. Now you'd probably find that the majority of the foreign student body is East Indian.

Anyhow, I digress. The point is that a replacement to the Activ DRO would not be a problem.
 
The point is that a replacement to the Activ DRO would not be a problem.
Sure it would...Heidenhain won't even *work* on the darn things anymore...you think they would still make new ones ??

Having said that I can see ways current Heidenhain DRO's could be configured to perform an Active like function...but these Iranians are showing the same 1979 Heidenhein DRO in the photos in 2009...no freakin way is Heidenhain still making these things.
 
If you are talking scales, that is one thing. If you are talking the electronics, then that is another. Who cares if Heidenhain isn't making them. It is a circuit board and some parts. If they are capable of manufacturing the machine, they can easily make the DRO or design something similar (that DRO is just not that complicated).

So, even if you are concerned about the lack of availability of scales, that can be rectified by using modern scales with modern electronics. I just don't see that this is even close to being a stumbling block for the Iranian operation.

Alan
 
So, even if you are concerned about the lack of availability of scales, that can be rectified by using modern scales with modern electronics. I just don't see that this is even close to being a stumbling block for the Iranian operation.
Says right on their website Heidenhain or Fagor for the DRO choice on the FP4MK...no where does it say "MST Heidenhain copy". MST was liscensed by Deckel, not Heidenhain. By your logic both Deckel and Maho...much larger concerns than these Iranians, might as well have manufactured their own brand of DRO's...but of course they never did....because while it "can be done" it just isn't practical and cost effective.
 
I didn't take look at the website to see that. If indeed it indicates Fagor or Heidenhain, then that is perplexing. I agree that they probably aren't using their own stuff and calling it Heidenhain!

As for practical or cost effective... There I disagree. If they are trying to replicate something that is no longer available (ignoring the last paragraph) then you do what you need to do. There is no rocket science in the Activ control. It can be replicated not only practically but cost effectively if they are trying to create an identical machine to what they originally licensed from Deckel. It could darned near be done in a BASIC stamp or a PIC variant!

Again, because they state availability with true Heidenhain equipment, that is a new wrench in the equation. God only knows what they've done now.
 
Deckel Dialog11 Boot Problem.

Hi all;

Thank to all for your contributions but my problem persist. I am not sure that the problem is in the EPROM.

My two Deckel Machines, FP4A and FP4-60T Stayed for one year unplugged. When I plugged them and was going to turn them on they was stuck in the "Self test" on SPS Error. The CNC green LED on the NVS card is switched off while that of the I/O card passes to red after few seconds. The NOT READY LED on the NPC card is switched on.

On Deckel Service Center recommendation, I have removed the accumulator of the NRP card and changed these of the NVS card. Then the FP4A Works normally for one month only and after that we have the same problem, the FP4-60T doesn’t work anymore. I have then try to use the NPC card of one machine onto the other, with changing the EPROM containing the Soft, but the problem persist. According to the Deckel technician, the problem is one the NPC card.

I will be very gratefully if anyone can help me to diagnose the breakdown. That does not seem to me logical that both NPC cards have the same problem while both machines were in perfect working order before.

Thank you.

Best regards.

Bilel HASSAID.
 

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Everytime I'd have bootup fail at SPS (identical to your screen shot) the problem was always either the battery pack (in the module all the way to the right) was either low on voltage or the pack had corrosion issues. I replaced the three NiCads with standard Alkaline 1.5 volt batteries and have had no problems since.
 








 
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