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Dialog11 NCP (SPS) EPROM problem.
- Thread starter hassaidb
- Start date
- Replies 34
- Views 8,212
Doesn't matter... 3.6 v (total) or 4.5 v is close enough. Many supposedly 3.6 volt NiCad batteries measure over 4.2 volts fully charged anyway.
I have theorized in the past that perhaps a few extra tenths of a volt might make the difference in an EPROM working or not if some components are 'weak' on the board, but that's just my speculation...yet to be proven really.
rklopp
Diamond
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2001
- Location
- Redwood City, CA USA
Billel,
Do not substitute alkaline batteries in an application where they see charging. They will leak sooner or later, and possibly wreck something.
RKlopp
Do not substitute alkaline batteries in an application where they see charging. They will leak sooner or later, and possibly wreck something.
RKlopp
So will NiCads.... in fact in my experience NiCads leak worse... keep a watch on either one. Having said that, I recently bought a new battery holder and 3 new NiCad batteries to install there .... the charge circuit is so weak in this case I seriously doubt the alkalines would hurt anything...but "just in case" gonna put NiCads in anyway...
wrench
Titanium
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2002
- Location
- Sunnyvale, CA
Unless I have misunderstood what you are trying to say, the EPROMs should not be powered by the batteries as there is no reason to do so. The battery should only power the SRAM to persist transient data. By their very nature, EPROMs don't have transient data, of course, hence there is no need to power them when the machine is off. And when the machine is on, nothing should be powered by the battery packs.
As for putting Alkaline batteries in a circuit that has an integrated charger.... I have to agree with Rich. Although it might "work," it is not a good idea. If you are intent on doing it, then you should probably do some circuit tracing and disable the charging circuit (should be easy to do). At the very least, you could put a diode in-line that would prevent charging but it will also incur a 0.7V drop.
Alan
rimcanyon
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Location
- Salinas, CA USA
What about lithium-ion batteries, like the CRV3 rechargeable Lithiums sold for digital cameras? Would those particular batteries work well in a circuit that has charging designed for Ni-CDs? The voltage seems to be in the right range (3-3.7V), but thats just based on info I have seen on the web.
I never said the EPROMs were powered by the batteries...I just meant that whatever the batteries do power, an extra tenth of a volt might make just enough difference in the circuit for the approriate EPROM to be allowed to enter into the circuit so to speak. I also said this could be completely wrong
wrench
Titanium
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2002
- Location
- Sunnyvale, CA
Dave,
As I recall, the charging profile for Li-Ion batteries is fairly different than that of NiCads. Given that, my concern would be that you might generate too much heat. Heat == bad times! This is something people with laptops learned not long ago!!!! So I don't think I'd want to mess around with a Li-Ion as a replacement to a NiCad. However, NiMH batteries have a charging profile that is similar to that of a NiCad. You should be able to use them instead. And NiMH doesn't have (quite) as bad a "memory" problem as NiCads have.
Don: I know that you didn't mean to say the EPROMs were powered by batteries but the posting was (I thought) a little vague so I decided to clarify. Whatever the case, the fact still remains that if everything is working properly, the batteries are not powering anything when the control is on. At that point the main power supply is doing the powering of the SRAM and the battery goes into a charging mode. So the extra tenths won't make a difference there.
Where the tenths may make a difference is in the retention of data when the machine is off. At some point the batteries do not have sufficient voltage, of course, to retain memory contents. That value can be fairly easily determined by looking up the datasheet on the SRAM memory chips.
Alan
As I recall, the charging profile for Li-Ion batteries is fairly different than that of NiCads. Given that, my concern would be that you might generate too much heat. Heat == bad times! This is something people with laptops learned not long ago!!!! So I don't think I'd want to mess around with a Li-Ion as a replacement to a NiCad. However, NiMH batteries have a charging profile that is similar to that of a NiCad. You should be able to use them instead. And NiMH doesn't have (quite) as bad a "memory" problem as NiCads have.
Don: I know that you didn't mean to say the EPROMs were powered by batteries but the posting was (I thought) a little vague so I decided to clarify. Whatever the case, the fact still remains that if everything is working properly, the batteries are not powering anything when the control is on. At that point the main power supply is doing the powering of the SRAM and the battery goes into a charging mode. So the extra tenths won't make a difference there.
Where the tenths may make a difference is in the retention of data when the machine is off. At some point the batteries do not have sufficient voltage, of course, to retain memory contents. That value can be fairly easily determined by looking up the datasheet on the SRAM memory chips.
Alan
In that case perhaps explain (or speculate) what exactly IS going on. What I mean by that... if my module battery pack is above say 3 volts, the machine boots up just fine. But if it's below 3 volts, it will seize on the SPS error and not boot up all the way. And from what I understand from techs that know, that is normal for the D11 control...that pack has to have a min voltage for the machine to boot up.
wrench
Titanium
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2002
- Location
- Sunnyvale, CA
Well, there are a couple of thoughts here; however, without a schematic I cannot tell you for sure...
Here are the two ideas to explain this. First, when the voltage drops below 3 volts there is not sufficient power to retain the contents of the SRAM. As such, the parameters therein get corrupted and *that* is what is causing the machine to fault. It is the software's responsibility to display a meaningful error message. If it isn't doing so, that is the problem of the software designer; the lack of a suitable error does not mean that the fundamental problem isn't simple corrupted memory, usually detected with a checksum of one type or another (CRC, etc).
The second idea is that the designers understood the inherent dangers of corrupted RAM and knew that the chips required 3V (actually, I think the retention is 3.3VDC but don't quote me on that...). Being a high end device, they chose to add some circuitry that referenced the battery voltage to the regulated power of the power supply. Having detected the obviously too low voltage provided by the battery, they precluded further machine booting with the assumption that the parametric information was bad.
Both of these are very real possibilities but impossible to say without looking at the circuit/board. Although the techs may know how the machines behave symptomatically, they don't necessarily know why those symptoms exist.
What I can tell you is that unless the designers were complete idiots, they wouldn't be powering the SRAM soley from the battery. And my guess is that they were *not* idiots. The only exception to this statement might be for some really bizarre special use case such as making the thing spacecraft redundant, but clearly it is not that. It is just a generic CNC design so I'd bet money that the power is coming from the supply, not the battery, when the machine is on.
Alan
Here are the two ideas to explain this. First, when the voltage drops below 3 volts there is not sufficient power to retain the contents of the SRAM. As such, the parameters therein get corrupted and *that* is what is causing the machine to fault. It is the software's responsibility to display a meaningful error message. If it isn't doing so, that is the problem of the software designer; the lack of a suitable error does not mean that the fundamental problem isn't simple corrupted memory, usually detected with a checksum of one type or another (CRC, etc).
The second idea is that the designers understood the inherent dangers of corrupted RAM and knew that the chips required 3V (actually, I think the retention is 3.3VDC but don't quote me on that...). Being a high end device, they chose to add some circuitry that referenced the battery voltage to the regulated power of the power supply. Having detected the obviously too low voltage provided by the battery, they precluded further machine booting with the assumption that the parametric information was bad.
Both of these are very real possibilities but impossible to say without looking at the circuit/board. Although the techs may know how the machines behave symptomatically, they don't necessarily know why those symptoms exist.
What I can tell you is that unless the designers were complete idiots, they wouldn't be powering the SRAM soley from the battery. And my guess is that they were *not* idiots. The only exception to this statement might be for some really bizarre special use case such as making the thing spacecraft redundant, but clearly it is not that. It is just a generic CNC design so I'd bet money that the power is coming from the supply, not the battery, when the machine is on.
Alan
Hola buenas hace poco adquiri una Deckel Fp4 nc dialog 11 y el error que tiene es en el SPS cómo podría arreglarlo? Saludos
Martin P
Titanium
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2004
To say it with the words of the infinitely patient and wise Ross:
"Guessing you are not interested in having a broad reaction/discussion."
Also it seems like a question "my car motor is broken, how do I fix it?"
Not everything on the NPC card is SPS/PLC related, but this card is the most expensive to have fixed.
"Guessing you are not interested in having a broad reaction/discussion."
Also it seems like a question "my car motor is broken, how do I fix it?"
Not everything on the NPC card is SPS/PLC related, but this card is the most expensive to have fixed.
Interesado estoy en arreglarlo, el error que me dijo el técnico fue que podrian ser las pilas pero mi duda, es si hay cambiarle las pilas puede que se pierda alguna memoria de la máquina
Martin P
Titanium
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2004
Au weia
Como?
