DN Solutions vs Leadwell vs Takisawa vs DMG Mori

[NAST555]

Hi all,
We are looking at replacing a Kia SKT21. I was originally looking for used but am struggling to find something decent. The SKT 21 has been a beautiful machine to own and it has been down too long. The Mitsubishi controller for the turret bombed out and many over here can't get it working properly. They have even tried new fanuc drives, the machine came standard with Fanuc drives and a Mitsubishi controlled turret, but they are still struggling. I would like to get it running again but am fishing around to replace it in the meantime.
I have requested a few quotes and so far 4 have caught my eye.
-The DN solutions is a DNT 2100 B with 80mm bar capacity and 550mm turning length. 10 station turret, chip conveyor, tailstock and 10" chuck included. Fanuc i-Plus

-The Leadwell is a LTC 25 with 77 bar capacity and 790mm turning length. 12 station turret, . Chip conveyor and 10" chuck included. Programmable tailstock extra cash. Fanuc i-Plus

-The Takisawa is a LA-250P with with 75mm bar capacity and 730mm turning length. 10 station turret, chip conveyor, tailstock and 10" chuck included. Fanuc Oi-TF plus

-The DMG Mori is either a T1 or T2. The T1 is with 65mm bar capacity and 410mm turning length. 12 station turret. Chip conveyor and tailstock extra cash. 8" chuck included.
The T2 is with 80mm bar capacity and 730mm turning length. 12 station turret, tailstock and 10" chuck included. Chip conveyor extra. Both DMG's with Sinumerik One control.

Price wise so far the DN has come in best. I need a chip conveyor and roughly 500mm turning length. Bar size as long as it is bigger than 60 but 80 would be nice. The other 3 are in a +- roughly the same price bracket but with adding the conveyor to the DMG T2 I suspect it will be the priciest. I have 2 other lather that are bigger that can handle the longer/larger dia work.
We are a jobbing shop that make parts for machines that we produce and for client parts. I could run quantities on this machine from 10off's to 500 off's. The one off's are perfectly suited for another machine that I already have.

Any insights on any of the machines? Am I missing one somewhere? Will the Sinumerik control have a big learning curve for my Fanuc brain?

Thanks for any feedback.

 

[dallack]

Will the Sinumerik control have a big learning curve for my Fanuc brain?

It will make you want to replace all your Fanuc machines after a week.

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

The DN is a great machine. The others are worthy as well.
Service? Is there adequate representation where you are?

 

[Vancbiker]

Siemens will seem great until it isn’t. Support dries up badly once they get 10 or so years old IME. Users in Europe seem to have better support. Since you are neither Europe or North America, I’d be amazed if there was good support from Siemens for you.

 

[NAST555]

The DN is a great machine. The others are worthy as well.
Service? Is there adequate representation where you are?

Machine wise... Yeah. I picked these 4 because the dealers are all decent. The Leadwell (W.D Hearn have been around for ages and we have dealt with them before). The DN (Puma machine tools that are probably the newest around out of the 4. Broke away from RETECON about 20 years ago). The Takisawa ( 600 group. So 600 SA have been around and sold decent brand machines for many years). The DMG (RETECON, which we have had the pleasure of dealing with before and have been around since the 70's)
All of them were the one's that came to mind for that reason. The owners of the doosans that I have seen around haven't had anything bad to say about Puma.

We also sell/repair used machine tools so we have dealt with a few places over the years. If we give someone a bad review it could hurt them a bit (not that we would for no reason) https://otmar.co.za/

 

[NAST555]

Siemens will seem great until it isn’t. Support dries up badly once they get 10 or so years old IME. Users in Europe seem to have better support. Since you are neither Europe or North America, I’d be amazed if there was good support from Siemens for you.

This is what I am worried about. Same goes for older Mitsubishi stuff over here.

 

[Vancbiker]

This is what I am worried about. Same goes for older Mitsubishi stuff over here.

Lots of big users see a 10 year old CNC as being at the end of useful life for them and move them out around that age. Euro control builders seem to follow that pattern but not totally consistently. Some items are supported for longer than others.

Fanuc is the king of long term support. It isn’t cheap, but it’s there. Plus there are many, many 3 party sources for Fanuc stuff. Way more than any other control builder.

In fairness to the Euro control builders their current levels of support are unknown to me. I’ve been retired for approaching 10 years now and have not dealt with their issues for at least that long. That said, when reading posts here from folks having trouble with older Euro controls they often get little to no help.

 

[Mtndew]

I used to run a Leadwell back in the late 90's. It was an LTC50AXL. 10 foot between centers. And a 50hp motor.

We got that brand new, it was by far the biggest piece of shit I've ever ran. The motor didn't have a gearbox, it was a "high torque" motor that had zero balls beyond 15" diameter. That's not good when the max turning diameter is 32".
Oh and while I was in the middle of a cut, the fucking turret fell off! And not from a crash either.
I don't know if they are better nowadays, but I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.

 

[NAST555]

I used to run a Leadwell back in the late 90's. It was an LTC50AXL. 10 foot between centers. And a 50hp motor.

We got that brand new, it was by far the biggest piece of shit I've ever ran. The motor didn't have a gearbox, it was a "high torque" motor that had zero balls beyond 15" diameter. That's not good when the max turning diameter is 32".
Oh and while I was in the middle of a cut, the fucking turret fell off! And not from a crash either.
I don't know if they are better nowadays, but I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.

Thanks, I think I would shit my pants on a machine that size if I had that happen.
They seem to be a bit on the lower end on quality to the others. Not cheap though but the machine quoted on is a bit bigger. They did also have a used Victor V20 that was traded in that he offered to me. It seems a bit of a downgrade from my Kia. Some guys over here like the Victors but I have not seen one that has really impressed me. There is a shop up the road from me that put a bit 3M victor in that took quite some time to get properly commisioned. I might go past them sometime just to see how it runs. They have 2 smaller victors that really did not impress me when I saw them running.
Maybe I am wrong. Anyone run or have experience with a Victor?

 

[pcasanova]

Any insights on any of the machines? Am I missing one somewhere? Will the Sinumerik control have a big learning curve for my Fanuc brain?

Thanks for any feedback.

well big fan of Siemens, but a certain level of support is going to be thru the mtb. Siemens (US) has always tried to help. They can only go so far, they don't know how the mtb has implemented to control. We had a machine that was 20+ years with the 840c that they officially ended support. In which they said we will still try to repair it, but if they cant then it's ebay or retrofit the machine. Now on control level the only repair I had to do was DMP module on plc which they fixed.

I have 2 840d that are 20+ years at this point neither has needed a control repair needed, a few drive repairs here and there.

Programming on the machine is a breeze, the cycle support for turning,drilling ect is quick and easy no cam needed.

 

[Pete Deal]

My Siemens experience has been as the others have said. It was with a piece of pharma equipment but had all Siemens controls and servo drives. We inherited the machine from another plant and it was new never used and about 10+ years old. It had some control issue and we wound up scrapping it because never could get it working and Siemens said the controls were obsolete. About a million dollar machine.

The Japanese don't seem to operate this way and I like that.

 

[Mtndew]

The best part about that Leadwell that we bought is that it came in a massive crate and all of the wood was mahogany.

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

Maybe I am wrong. Anyone run or have experience with a Victor?

Dad had one, a TNS2, about 1985 or so. For the first 2-3 years it was fine, then one problem after another until it died on the floor. Weird stuff, like things falling off the turret, wires shorting against the chassis of the cabinets, hydraulic leaks, glass falling out, support was awful. A big pass.

 

[alphonso]

Talking to a colleague the other day. Said they had 18 "Leakwells" on the floor. He is not a big fan.

 

[NAST555]

Ok update,
Going to look at the "Doosan" next week. Have kind of crossed the leadwell off of the list. Then I got a quote from a dealer for "GOOD WAY". Anyone have experience with their machines?

 

[EndlessWaltz]

Do you not want a Puma with a 12 station turret at least? Is that readily available over there?

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

Ok update,
Going to look at the "Doosan" next week. Have kind of crossed the leadwell off of the list. Then I got a quote from a dealer for "GOOD WAY". Anyone have experience with their machines?

Be careful with the "no name" Taiwan and Chinese machines, parts and support can - literally - disappear overnight. When SMTCL went away, they tossed all the ladder info and documentation into an office dumpster.

 

[gregormarwick]

Anyone run or have experience with a Victor?

Victor make excellent lathes. Maybe they didn't in 1985, but idk about that.

I have a 1997 VTurn 36, bought another brand new in 2011, both rock solid reliable workhorse lathes. Basic clones of Mori SL's mechanically, built like a brick shithouse. Fanuc controls with pretty much textbook no bells or whistles integration.

They are not perfect, but the faults are minor niggles - window placement is not great, tailstock pickup switches are prone to getting destroyed by stringy chips - things like that.

Having experienced both, I definitely would not pay the (albeit minor) premium for a Doosan over a Victor - if I wanted a workhorse the Victor will do everything the Doosan will do, and if I wanted a really nice high end experience I wouldn't be buying a Doosan either.

 

[SeymourDumore]

Surprised noone commented on the Takisawa machines yet.
That brand is on the very top of the list for my next potential 8" machine and I'm genuinely curious to hear something about them.
They are Japanese built from what I understand, and if they're anything like the other 3 true Japan made lathes I already own, I would not be concerned with a little extra on the pricetag.

 

[Orange Vise]

Be careful with the "no name" Taiwan and Chinese machines, parts and support can - literally - disappear overnight. When SMTCL went away, they tossed all the ladder info and documentation into an office dumpster.

Whoa, when did that happen?

The whole company or just the US sales division?