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Does anyone use water based finish on production items? Experience?

In 1987 I did 36 offices for the National Forest Products Association in Washington DC. Members from all over the US sent product representative of their region or manufacturing process. We machined it into various wall treatments as appropriate to the product, and finished one wall in each office with it. This ranged from say, 2' wide x 18' long southern pine boards, to "normal" range of hardwoods, to man made boards including various particle boards, printed panels (fake "grain"), and melamine faced product.

One aspect of the contract was that a water based finish was specified. It was applied with a flat pad "applicator". I used it on all bare wood and remember is as being easy to apply for most of the treatments we did, but not very impressive from a looks standpoint. Kind of bland, and a little ropey (some ridges). It tended to raise the grain a little, and smelled like ammonia. I've not had reason to use any water based clear finishes since.

My usual finish process is either real shellac/french polish from flakes for furniture, "traditional" work, and "personal" items; or it is (sprayed) ML Campbell Duravar conversion (2 part) varnish where a rugged finish is required. I would not mind getting away from the health issues of lacquer thinners and conversion varnishes, if there is something fool proof, durable, and efficient to apply that also looks good. Preferably the product would be easy to modify with toners and flatting agent as desired, similar to the ML Campbell products.

My understanding is that water based finishes have improved quite a bit in 25+ years. Does anyone use it on "nice" production items? Even say, routinely used for kitchens? How do you apply it? (can it be sprayed, and what is the result or pit falls? What product do you like?

thanks!

smt
 
It's been a few years since I last built anything "nice" out of wood, but I did enjoy using Target Coatings' waterborne finishes. I made a few tables sprayed with a basecoat or two of their waterborne shellac and a few topcoats of ultraclear polyurethane. I used a 4-stage HVLP will good results.
 
I would not mind getting away from the health issues of lacquer thinners and conversion varnishes, if there is something fool proof, durable, and efficient to apply that also looks good. Preferably the product would be easy to modify with toners and flatting agent as desired, similar to the ML Campbell products.

My understanding is that water based finishes have improved quite a bit in 25+ years. Does anyone use it on "nice" production items? Even say, routinely used for kitchens? How do you apply it? (can it be sprayed, and what is the result or pit falls? What product do you like?

thanks!

smt

Stephen,
You're looking for fool proof finishing? That's a tall order. :D
We spray ML Campbell Agualante on a pretty regular basis, mostly on LEED projects for wall paneling, doors, frames and casework. We run it through an air assisted pump to deal with the high viscosity. They (ML Campbell) classify it as a water borne lacquer. It's pre-cat so, dead simple, but it's not as durable as a conversion varnish. The biggest drawback for us, other than the longer dry time, is the slightly milky appearance that makes colour matching a challenge. They have another post-cat product that is crystal clear (can't remember the name), but it contains isocyanates in the catalyst, so you'll want to be wearing an air fed respirator in the booth. Just because it's water-borne, doesn't mean you want to drink the stuff. I'd talk to your ML Campbell distributor - they'll be able to point you in the right direction.
Martin
 
Stephen,
My friends who have converted are all using Target coatings. You can get real time tech support from the owner of the company. If you are serious about making the shift, I would recommend calling them to figure out which product is best for your application. Target Coatings Water Based Ultra Low VOC Wood Finishes and Specialty Coatings

I am a Duravar user, but need to get my but in gear and make the change. The health reasons are a great motivator. I even bought a third gun with the intention of making it a water based only gun, but my color gun quit and the new gun got forced into service.

Peter
 
I have had really good luck with Enduro from General Finishes they have both water base lacquer and poly 2or 3 coats of sanding sealer then 2 or 3 coats of top coat dries fast sands in about 20 min you can add a little dye and it gets that warm effect.
It's tough stuff too, Sparys with a HVLP gun easy
they have a cross linker you can add for an even tougher finish
Now for stain well still using oil the water base stuff dries real quick
 
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My partner has been experimenting with General Finishes Endurothane this past week. Hermance reps it in Williamsport. Have not heard reports yet. General has a toning system that can be used with it as you mentions, which is good. I sent her Pete's info on Target, so we'll throw that into the research mix as well.

72bwhite:
It's tough stuff to Sparys with a HVLP gun.

are you saying it is tough to spray, or just that is is tough to spray with HVLP?
We are actually interested in a finish that can be rolled or wiped on first coat.
One idea is to pre-finish parts one coat and scuff sand before assembly to prevent glue smear adhesion. With spraying un-assembled parts, avoiding contamination of the glue joints becomes a problem.

Thanks for the help and suggestions.

smt
 
No tough as in durable,
Very easy to spray just stir it up filter as you poor it in the pot and spray.
Trained baboon easy.
You can brush it on.
What I really like is I can finish a piece in one day instead of several days with an oil based poly.
Now the water base stuff still has nasty fumes you just lose the organic solvent portions,and you can clean up with water and dump it down the drain.
I only use it as the top coat as in clear coating for stain I still use minwax .
Although I did do some opaque white for inside of cabinets that came out nice as well.
Just remember water base isn't like latex wall paint.
 
Been testing the General Finshes (brand) "Enduro-Var" recently and have to say I love the product for flat work. Any coat sands without clogging the paper, a big plus right there.
Faster drying than I expected, would not be a bottle neck factor. later coats dry faster.
Like the look, toughness, and application ease so far.

That said and moving to try to buy a few gallons of sanding sealer and a 5 of Enduro-Var,
it seems most stockers only carry qts :rolleyes5: Gallons are available but shipping costs seem high. The product seems expensive, but maybe not if it is really high polyurethane content. Is Amazon really the low price vendor???

Trying to find "reasonable" cost vendor, I bump back into my ML Campbell distributor, and they also have some products. Has anyone by chance used GF Enduro-Var and also MLC Aguabarnice that can offer a comparison?
Anyone using Aguabarnice?

Has anyone started with Target and gone over to GF or vice versa?

If you use "reasonable amounts" of Enduro-Var, (say multiple gallons min, or 5's) where do you get it on the East coast and what price?

Browsing online, I see various references to Enduro-Var not being easy to spray on vertical surfaces: enough finish to level well results in sags? We did maybe a dozen or more panels, but never considered spraying any vertical :dopeslap: Did not make mockups to explore spraying inside a box. Comments?

Any other comparisons welcome!
smt
 
Stephen, I have used the Enduro line before they got picked up by General Finishes, and still like it, and I really like the General Finishes own label - HP Poly. It is hard to find in quantities or at good prices. My best success is when Woodcraft has a sale on everything in the store, you can get it at a decent price, once you factor in the savings on shipping, but they often only have a few gallons of each product in stock. I have used some Target as well, but not consistently enough to say I prefer one over the other by a bunch, especially since they all seem to be reformulating their products pretty regularly, and as you may have read in some other posts, the names they use have very little to do with what is in the product. It is easy to buy Target in bulk directly from Target, and they often have sales ( I think the 20% off has been running for a while ) but again, they like most change their formulations pretty often. For example, the EM6000 is their "production lacquer" but is version EPLv8.0, which it may not be exactly the same product I bought a years ago, even though it was called EM6000. Another plus for Target is the owner runs a good forum, and he is pretty responsive on suggestions of which product to use for which application Target Coatings, Inc. :: View Forum - Using Target Coatings Water-Based Top Coats Forum
 
Barry-

Thanks for the thoughts and comments. Useful to hear that Target vs General is not a clear difference either way.

I have been using General Finishes Enduro-Var for about a month, and it is a strange, long learning curve.
I really like the low toxicity, lower use of things like lacquer thinner in the air. I use some lacquer thinner in a small cup to keep the spray gun nozzle in during the day between uses or filling the pot, etc. This stuff is really gummy and tends to build up on a nozzle or in the fluid port nozzle if the gun sits even, say, over lunch. For overnight or longer I wash the cup and run water through the gun, then alcohol to dry it, then lacquer thinner to keep any residues in suspension until next use.

The finish is "OK" and from a distance looks pretty good. It takes more coats to get an acceptable finish than MLC Duravar. GFE is harder to get a good tint, and their tint colors are not as intuitively color friendly as MLC toners. I suppose the nuisance of heavy grain raising with the first coat is endemic to all waterborne. The tendency to swell defects in the second or 3rd coats, sometimes unexpectedly is worse.

I have done tons (days) of color samples, and finish quality samples along with moving some product through preliminary steps. Several weeks ago we experimented with color samples and got something we like. The next day I made a full batch, loaded up the gun and sprayed all day. The color on the product came out _very_ yellow. Not at all the amber of the samples, and the toner (die-stain) was out of the same can, same mix ratio, everything.

Part of what happened is we were using sanding sealer on the advice of every dealer who reps the product, and the initial contact at GF to use sanding sealer first under Enduro-Var. This is 2 people here independently researching and getting the same advice from multiple contacts over a month or so. So after making samples and spraying on product, I called the company to place a larger order. The contact person said "sanding sealer!?! You don't want to use that!!! Do _NOT_ use it under Enduro-var!"

Well I was glad to get the real info before spraying product. Personally I have always found self priming with the main product such as MLC Durovar far superior anyway. But it did not occur to me that the color change might be different.

A week of back and forth and further toning experiments ensued, to tone down the yellow more toward a warmer orange/brown back ground.

Yesterday I was set to final spray a test unit, 3rd coat, and thought to spray some sample panels "just in case".

Nothing but orange peel, orange peel, surface like a basketball texture out of the gun despite every adjustment combination I could think of. Plus one panel would lay down nice, the next all orange peel. So, a long round of calls back and forth and experiments with surfactents. At least we got it before coating anything important. Turns out that contrary to "normal" practice with aromatic solvent based systems; One should not sand even the final coats to finely. We were going 180 wood out of the wide belt with some 180ROS touch up as indicated, first coat, 320 ROS, second coat, 500-600 Norton sanding sponges to scuff sand for 3rd coat.

Nope, that is way too smooth, apparently. Finish beads up like water on a clean windshield instead of wetting out. According to further conversation with factory, use 320 minimum grit all the way through to final coat! Which basically leads to a situation where it takes about 3 coats to get what would take 2 with MLC Duravar, or 4 coats of GF to get a MLC 3 coat finish. Plus even at industrial rates from the factory, the GF finishes cost about 50 - 25% more. (as with many companies, cost/unit progressively declines in a year as your cumulative volume increases)

"Flow Out" (surfactent) is still listed (was still yesterday) on the company's website. Since I was still hoping at that time to get product done by the weekend, I called the company to see if something local might work. I do like their chemist, he actually pays attention, has crucial insights, and gives real advice, not some "corporate think". We had a longish discussion about possibilites, end result being that if I came up with something local, he would advise. This did happen, and he commented that what I came up with should be compatible with GF systems but was not one tested there and drying time might be an issue based on what he saw in the mix (he downloaded the MSDS on his end while we talked).

I tried a very small amount, it worked well enough, but drying time was extended. Hard to tell how much was weather based, though- another problem with water based finishes. Humid, cool days are worse with them than aromatic solvent systems, though at least you don't get blush. It was pouring down rain here & my de-humidifier decided to die, too. Either way, I decided to order the GF "Flow Out" for Monday. As another example of poor information transfer from the company, several rounds around the factory my directing them to their own website, and it turns out they don't make it anymore anyway & apparently have not for some time.

I am not sorry to have started with water base finishes. I can see a lot of potential. So far nowhere near as easy, fool-proof, and low labor as MLC Duravar. With waterborne there is much more sanding, more aggressive sanding, and possibly more coats of more expensive finish to get comparable results. Oh, and it takes 2 days to get on what would take 1 day with MLC. (OTOH, there is no recoat window) I do not expect to use it for "onesie-twosies" and most likely not for custom pieces. Though that may change as my experience level increases. However, for production work with days spent in a hood moving a spray gun, i feel better and the work atmosphere is better with the waterborne. For a very small shop like mine, I can also see how with production stuff and vapors blowing out the fan on a daily basis at times, the waterborne is superior in not triggering or testing the tolerance of neighbors and bored local authorities. For a shop doing a volume short of needing some kind of full-on ventilation/filtration/fume abatement system, that may well be the biggest value.

General Finishes seems to be a good company & I immediately like the contact people and the techs I have dealt with. They are not yet "bored corporate types" and still seem to take your problem on a personal level. Good feelings on that score. But there is a lot of disorganization; and distribution channels and their vendors (I've called a half dozen within 100 miles on days i hoped to get something without waiting on shipping) do not rep the product well or knowlegeably and do not keep deep inventory yet.

smt
 
I'm not trying to offer a trick answer, but have a high school friend that is a cabinetmaker. For all of his kitchens, he uses water based floor finish on the cabinets. He designed and built the cabinets in out kitchen, so we have had floor finish on the cabinets which was applied by our painter. I didn't want to trick you into thinking I've done this, I have only used it as such as a consumer. ;)

My friend was very adamant about it being Benjamin Moore water based flooring finish, I forget the exact name but they only had one.

After 15 years of abuse, they are still in pretty good shape. The kitchen is brutal on the finish, hot/cold water, oils, ingredients are all being splashed.

When he told me about it 15 years ago when he built the cabinets, he mentioned that since it is water based it's easy to clean up, so he can get in and get out quick if he needs to finish at the job site.

Also, many if not all of the most popular log home finishes are now water based. This trend has taken hold over the past 20 years. Sansin (Canada), Permachink, Sashco, et al have their leading lines as water based. Sikkens is still popular with some and it's oil based as I recall, but more and more using water based as it's easier to get. Sikkens Cetol Marine has always been pretty popular on brightwork of boats, which is often teak. A real harsh environment with the salt water. Some counties have had it taken off the market in Cali. 25 years ago you couldn't buy Cetal in Ventura County, but could in Santa Cruz. I would be surprised if you could buy Cetol in Santa Cruz today.

I have Sansin Artic (water based) clear on knotty pine paneling in my home office/shop. Happy with it, it's been on it for about 7 years.

I plan to use water based Permachink on a log home.

Cheers,
Alan
 
Alan-

Enduro-Var is General Finishes floor finish.
I'd probably be happy using it on architectural features, if someone else spec'd a finish. IOW, prefer to oil or solvent based film coating. But for spraying cabinets for a "quick" "furniture finish" it is not as easy or quick as aromatic solvent based systems, particularly IME, MLC Duravar (post-cat conversion varnish). But I do like the air quality a lot better.

Thanks for mentioning some other options!

smt
 
Stephen, I have some friends that run auto repair shops - and one converted to water based last year, the other converted a few months ago. The both said there were some learning curves, and some was not intuitive, but they are now used to it. I sure it will be the same for you .To keep the fluid nozzle clean, some suggest that you rub the slightest amount of vaseline on the needle and the tip of the needle. I usually try to keep a toothbrush handy and use that to knock off anything that dries on the nozzle - course it is much more of a problem in hot weather. In terms of knocking down the initial grain raise, Enduro used to recommend rubbing it down with brown paper, I have been still using that practice for the first coat, after the second coat, I go back to 400 grit fre cut . They say fre cut does not have anything that will cause fisheyes with water based.
 
I used water based floor varnish on all of my tool boxes + the kitchen cabinets im makeing. Unlike solvent based polyurethane i find its way tuffer and wear resistant also does not yellow anything like as much. Its incredably chemical resistant too, the only thing i find that strips it is cellulose or xylene thinners, any oil never ever bothers it and just wipes right off. I find it slightly cloudy though, but still liveable with. As to brush marks, IMHO you gotta spray the stuff, any brush, roller or approach i have ever tried leaves brush marks, the stuff just does not flow like normal varnishes do.
 
Dunno if this will clarify some of the issues or not....

We are trying to resolve a finish process for a production product. Well, of course at this point there is no such thinkg as a "line" or even much space to do it in. But the idea is to spray stackable boxes/cabinets with a color toned finish that presents well at minimal cost. $100/box finish is not viable, and we are beyond that in realistic terms given the extra sanding, extra coats, extra drying time between coats, and extra cost of materials.

I do recognize that the costs would come way down with enough dedicated space to work, and some refinements in the sanding process.

Gotta admit, I'm dedicated to moving forward *if* other aspects of the project are viable. The waterbase is just so much more comfortable to be around. But I would say right now it costs twice what MLC Duravar costs, start to finish at the same "quality" finish point.

To be clear, we are not looking for "heirloom" finish (or we would not be using polyurethane at all for that matter); though it should imply that to non-finish professionals, aka "sales appeal". It needs to be essentially an out-of-the-gun finish with not a lot of post work such as rub out, etc. It is a color toned finish for product uniformity. No time or effort for pre-staining an hand tinting. We do want durability, and it should look _very_ good from 5 ft away. Close up a knowlegable finisher will possibly note the pips from the drying rack on the "B" side of panels, some sand throughs in early color coats, and maybe a few finger doodles on a corner or 2 from handling the wet pieces coated on all sides at once to save a couple steps in the spray process. But the finish process needs to be easy, fast, predictable, and durable.

I'm kind of slouching in that direction as experience builds.

I agree with comments about this stuff being pretty tough and very chemical resistant.

smt
 
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I have been trying out a product called "Breakthrough" by PPG. It is expensive per can but not outrageous. I am using a paint but I was told it comes in a clear.

So far I like it fairly well. I am brushing it on but would like to spray at some point in the future. It is thick so a fairly large orifice would be necessary. It dries FAST almost as fast as lacquer unless it is a really humid day and is pretty hard a few hours later which is important to me, when I tried waterbased paints a few years ago the paint would easily come of if bumped a day or 2 after painting. I find I am getting fewer brushmarks with this than I was with the lacquer after thinning it a little.

The things I don't like about it are it's lack of fill. the grain is very obvious after even 2 coats. With a pattern I want a smooth almost plastic finish and this does not have as muck fill as lacquer does. This may not be an issue in your application. Maybe slightly less thinning will help with this. Brushing it on it has a very short window to tip it off just like lacquer but a thin coat will not "burn in" like lacquer will if you mess up an area. This does not bother me that much as it lays down much nicer than the lacquer does. Like any water based finish it will raise the grain but it does not seem to raise it as much as the water based automotive primer I am using under it for the fill. The only other issue I had with it was with on a pattern I made about 2 months ago. I had to add some extra machining on the pattern due to a disagreement about a drawing, when I went to write on the pattern using a mechanical pencil the lead broke and the paint scratched off where I was trying to write with the pencil. This may have been partially due to some reaction to the sand binder and the maybe the softer primer underneath. I just tried writing on a sample piece I painted at the same time and it is fairly tough.

I think I will be switching to this as my primary pattern paint unless I hear about any adverse reaction with the sand binders. I am still experimenting with my priming to get it super smooth. I have tried a coat of sanding sealer under the primer to cut down on the grain raising and it helps but is both an extra step I want to eliminate and I don't like putting a water base over a lacquer base. I think I may try putting on a coat of the breakthrough then the primer then the breakthrough again. Maybe switching to spraying the primer will cut down on raising the grain.
 
Back in the day, 1975, I used to use good old nitrocellulose lacquer. I loved the stuff. It made the grain pop out, dried in a matter of minutes, flow out was great, and you could really move on a finishing job. It was repairable easily. Then the VOC regulations came out and I had to get a waiver from the DEP to continue buying and using it. I was considered a low volume user and did not exceed the yearly total of VOC. A few years later, I was told by my supplier that I could no longer purchase it and they no longer manufactured it. Nobody did. So the search for a new finish started. Nothing stays the same and after a few years using this or that I always had to change as the environmental regulations changed.

Each time I found a finish that I liked, got used to, and worked well for me I would have to find another. That was not so bad because it lead me to pre-cat finishes that were much more durable and had a lot of the same characteristics that the nitro had.

Then in 1989 for reasons I will not get into but it had to do with local zoning BS I had to switch to water born finishes. I got samples from many manufacturer and tried them all. I finally settled on one and used it on a large custom kitchen job. I'm talking about some 60 doors and drawer heads and the cabinets behind them. Between the sanding sealer and topcoat maybe 10 gallons of finish.

Now my shop is not that large that I can lay out 60 doors for finishing so what I have always done is to spray in the spray room and then move the doors or cabinets out into the shop for drying. Once a batch is dry, I move them to another area and repeat the process. I would stack the doors on some stickers vertically on the floor with a small piece of veneer in a corner keeping the doors from touching each other after they were dry.

I guess dry is a relative term because the next day I had a block of doors all stuck together. What a mess I had to fix not to mention the doubling or tripling of my finishing time. That was the last time I used water born finishes.

I went back to my solvent finishes and nobody has bothered me since.
 
This might be a bit late but here it is:

I use Target finishes for a number of reasons. The best reason is that Jeff Weiss, the owner and head chemist, is quick to answer questions. My procedure is to spray EM8000cv. It sprays well with my HVLP conversion gun. I run a small electric heater to speed the cure so that I can lightly sand within an hour. The EM8000cv sands like you would expect a lacquer to sand- white chalky dust. I can build up coats quickly. I am not great with a spray gun but I can sometimes take a surface straight from the gun. I often will need to rub out the finish.

Nico
 
Stephen,

This thread has stuck in my mind.

"Thanks for the thoughts and comments. Useful to hear that Target vs General is not a clear difference either way."

I could not disagree with the above statement more. Your experience with General has been nothing like mine with Target coatings. The 6000 and the 8000 will not have any issues with orange peel when applied over an ultra rubbed out coat. The products are formulated to burn in and already have the surfactants to address the tension issue that failed the general. I think that a comparison within your workflow would go a long way to adding some actual evidence to the above claim.

I do disassemble my gun frequently but I will be trying out Jeff's approved method of running a 50/50 blend of denatured and water through the gun. If that solves my build up issues my gun may come apart much less frequently (I typically take it apart at the end of the day for a thorough cleaning)

last point is more of a note for people switching to water based finishes. I have taken to raising the grain before my first coat. This reduces the amount of sanding needed to level the first coat. I had been having an additional problem where the first coat was raising the grain and revealing issues that would not have been a concern under a product like duravar.
 








 
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