Barry-
Thanks for the thoughts and comments. Useful to hear that Target vs General is not a clear difference either way.
I have been using General Finishes Enduro-Var for about a month, and it is a strange, long learning curve.
I really like the low toxicity, lower use of things like lacquer thinner in the air. I use some lacquer thinner in a small cup to keep the spray gun nozzle in during the day between uses or filling the pot, etc. This stuff is really gummy and tends to build up on a nozzle or in the fluid port nozzle if the gun sits even, say, over lunch. For overnight or longer I wash the cup and run water through the gun, then alcohol to dry it, then lacquer thinner to keep any residues in suspension until next use.
The finish is "OK" and from a distance looks pretty good. It takes more coats to get an acceptable finish than MLC Duravar. GFE is harder to get a good tint, and their tint colors are not as intuitively color friendly as MLC toners. I suppose the nuisance of heavy grain raising with the first coat is endemic to all waterborne. The tendency to swell defects in the second or 3rd coats, sometimes unexpectedly is worse.
I have done tons (days) of color samples, and finish quality samples along with moving some product through preliminary steps. Several weeks ago we experimented with color samples and got something we like. The next day I made a full batch, loaded up the gun and sprayed all day. The color on the product came out _very_ yellow. Not at all the amber of the samples, and the toner (die-stain) was out of the same can, same mix ratio, everything.
Part of what happened is we were using sanding sealer on the advice of every dealer who reps the product, and the initial contact at GF to use sanding sealer first under Enduro-Var. This is 2 people here independently researching and getting the same advice from multiple contacts over a month or so. So after making samples and spraying on product, I called the company to place a larger order. The contact person said "sanding sealer!?! You don't want to use that!!! Do _NOT_ use it under Enduro-var!"
Well I was glad to get the real info before spraying product. Personally I have always found self priming with the main product such as MLC Durovar far superior anyway. But it did not occur to me that the color change might be different.
A week of back and forth and further toning experiments ensued, to tone down the yellow more toward a warmer orange/brown back ground.
Yesterday I was set to final spray a test unit, 3rd coat, and thought to spray some sample panels "just in case".
Nothing but orange peel, orange peel, surface like a basketball texture out of the gun despite every adjustment combination I could think of. Plus one panel would lay down nice, the next all orange peel. So, a long round of calls back and forth and experiments with surfactents. At least we got it before coating anything important. Turns out that contrary to "normal" practice with aromatic solvent based systems; One should not sand even the final coats to finely. We were going 180 wood out of the wide belt with some 180ROS touch up as indicated, first coat, 320 ROS, second coat, 500-600 Norton sanding sponges to scuff sand for 3rd coat.
Nope, that is way too smooth, apparently. Finish beads up like water on a clean windshield instead of wetting out. According to further conversation with factory, use 320 minimum grit all the way through to final coat! Which basically leads to a situation where it takes about 3 coats to get what would take 2 with MLC Duravar, or 4 coats of GF to get a MLC 3 coat finish. Plus even at industrial rates from the factory, the GF finishes cost about 50 - 25% more. (as with many companies, cost/unit progressively declines in a year as your cumulative volume increases)
"Flow Out" (surfactent) is still listed (was still yesterday) on the company's website. Since I was still hoping at that time to get product done by the weekend, I called the company to see if something local might work. I do like their chemist, he actually pays attention, has crucial insights, and gives real advice, not some "corporate think". We had a longish discussion about possibilites, end result being that if I came up with something local, he would advise. This did happen, and he commented that what I came up with should be compatible with GF systems but was not one tested there and drying time might be an issue based on what he saw in the mix (he downloaded the MSDS on his end while we talked).
I tried a very small amount, it worked well enough, but drying time was extended. Hard to tell how much was weather based, though- another problem with water based finishes. Humid, cool days are worse with them than aromatic solvent systems, though at least you don't get blush. It was pouring down rain here & my de-humidifier decided to die, too. Either way, I decided to order the GF "Flow Out" for Monday. As another example of poor information transfer from the company, several rounds around the factory my directing them to their own website, and it turns out they don't make it anymore anyway & apparently have not for some time.
I am not sorry to have started with water base finishes. I can see a lot of potential. So far nowhere near as easy, fool-proof, and low labor as MLC Duravar. With waterborne there is much more sanding, more aggressive sanding, and possibly more coats of more expensive finish to get comparable results. Oh, and it takes 2 days to get on what would take 1 day with MLC. (OTOH, there is no recoat window) I do not expect to use it for "onesie-twosies" and most likely not for custom pieces. Though that may change as my experience level increases. However, for production work with days spent in a hood moving a spray gun, i feel better and the work atmosphere is better with the waterborne. For a very small shop like mine, I can also see how with production stuff and vapors blowing out the fan on a daily basis at times, the waterborne is superior in not triggering or testing the tolerance of neighbors and bored local authorities. For a shop doing a volume short of needing some kind of full-on ventilation/filtration/fume abatement system, that may well be the biggest value.
General Finishes seems to be a good company & I immediately like the contact people and the techs I have dealt with. They are not yet "bored corporate types" and still seem to take your problem on a personal level. Good feelings on that score. But there is a lot of disorganization; and distribution channels and their vendors (I've called a half dozen within 100 miles on days i hoped to get something without waiting on shipping) do not rep the product well or knowlegeably and do not keep deep inventory yet.
smt