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Drummond UK Treadle Radial Drill

maynah

Stainless
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Location
Maine
Rob I do have the complete dividing head and plates. I just moved and haven't set up my shop yet. Here's a picture and as you can see it's a little hard getting to the lathe right now. There is a wooden box under the lathe that has most of the tooling in it. I posted the lathe on the yahoo group when I got it in 2011 so there are pictures of everything I have on there somewhere. I wasn't crazy about yahoo's format and haven't been there for years.
A quick look through the model M sales brochures and they are all the early style lathe. My lathe is the early style but the owner ordered all the parts to change it into the post 1923 style. I have all his correspondence with Drummond to do that.

Drummond.jpg
 

Rob Gough

Plastic
Joined
Aug 18, 2022
Maynah, Yes the yahoo format wasn't great. That group of people, the posts and the group files have now moved to [email protected], when yahoo stopped supporting the groups platform a couple of years ago. The new set up is still email based but the site is easier to navigate when you want to look at the files and the chat history. I'll try and find the 2011 posts you refer to, but when you do get back up and running I'd appreciate any photos and key dimensions you could give me for the dividing head. It's really the worm details I need, I think I can work everything back from that component and make a version that at least looks in a similar style to the original. I'd like to make the new one so you can pivot the worm out of engagement with the bull gear, like the G Thomas Myford design. Not sure the Drummond version had that capability from the few pictures I've seen.
 

Robert Lang

Stainless
Joined
Apr 3, 2007
Location
Minneapolis, MN
A nice illustration from 1911.


Link to Arthur's 1908 patent for the drill, 23,861. You can download a pdf of the patent.


Also his patent of 1908, 23,860.



Rob
 

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Rob Gough

Plastic
Joined
Aug 18, 2022
Rob,

Thanks for all those posts. The image is in American Machinist is the best so far of the jockey wheels, I'll also down load the patents. I had been search for the patents having got the numbers from the nameplate, but I've not come across Espacenet before. With regard to the image of the other other variant, with the heavier support under the column, do you have a date for the publication where the image was taken from?

I've found a lot more information for this variant but nothing I can date. I was working on the assumption that this version was an evolution of design I have, rather than both types being offered at the same time. So if I could narrow down an introduction date for the 'heavy support' variant it would give a 'no later than' date for my design.

Great support from you and Maynah, thanks again.

Best regards,
Rob
 

Robert Lang

Stainless
Joined
Apr 3, 2007
Location
Minneapolis, MN
With regard to the image of the other other variant, with the heavier support under the column, do you have a date for the publication where the image was taken from?

I've found a lot more information for this variant but nothing I can date. I was working on the assumption that this version was an evolution of design I have, rather than both types being offered at the same time. So if I could narrow down an introduction date for the 'heavy support' variant it would give a 'no later than' date for my design.

It is from an article of October 1925 showing the "improved sensitive radial drilling machine".
I would agree that this is a redesign of your version and this would be when your version was no longer made.

It would appear that Drummond made these drills for some time and made a lot of them.

It is interesting to note that a number of machine tool makers started to make these small sensitive radial drills around the same 1908-1909 timeframe.

I have an American Tool Works one. They came out with this in the 1908-1909 timeframe.

Rob
 

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maynah

Stainless
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Location
Maine
I burrowed my way to the Drummond. Hope these pics help.
I haven't cleaned any of the accessories, so they still have a nice protective coating of oily dirt. I'll add I've never used this lathe. I cleaned the lathe itself and a few pieces and had it sitting in my shop. I just like to look at it.
 

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Robert Lang

Stainless
Joined
Apr 3, 2007
Location
Minneapolis, MN
With regard to the image of the other other variant, with the heavier support under the column, do you have a date for the publication where the image was taken from?

I've found a lot more information for this variant but nothing I can date. I was working on the assumption that this version was an evolution of design I have, rather than both types being offered at the same time. So if I could narrow down an introduction date for the 'heavy support' variant it would give a 'no later than' date for my design.

It looks like your drill was made prior to 1920.
I found an article, from 1920, showing a new design of the drill.
You can see the difference in the head of the drill.

Rob
 

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Rob Gough

Plastic
Joined
Aug 18, 2022
Rob,
Do you have a link to the 1920 article? When I down loaded from here the resolution was not very good.

I wonder if this variant is closer to mine, as I has a cast guard around the bevel and back gears that looks very much like it is original. Although my guard is a little different to the 1920 one. With the resolution of the picture I'm not sure if that is what is being shown or something more like the total enclosed gears and quill of the 1925 variant. I notice the 1925 variant has the back gear lever on the top where as the 1920 article, I think, shows it on the bottom. Possibly there were a few variants of this guard. It looks like the design shown in the 1908 articles was still being used in the 1915 article. But between 1915 and 1925 there were possible 2+ variants of guards used.

Thanks again for you support.
 
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Rob Gough

Plastic
Joined
Aug 18, 2022
Maynah,
Thanks for the dividing head pictures. Goes the worm pivot like the George Thomas Myford design or is it permanently engaged?
 

Robert Lang

Stainless
Joined
Apr 3, 2007
Location
Minneapolis, MN
Rob,
Do you have a link to the 1920 article? When I down loaded from here the resolution was not very good.

I wonder if this variant is closer to mine, as I has a cast guard around the bevel and back gears that looks very much like it is original. Although my guard is a little different to the 1920 one. With the resolution of the picture I'm not sure if that is what is being shown or something more like the total enclosed gears and quill of the 1925 variant. I notice the 1925 variant has the back gear lever on the top where as the 1920 article, I think, shows it on the bottom. Possibly there were a few variants of this guard. It looks like the design shown in the 1908 articles was still being used in the 1915 article. But between 1915 and 1925 there were possible 2+ variants of guards used.

Thanks again for you support.

That was in high resolution, but the original is not very good.
Here are two links to different scans.



I don't think the 1920 variant is closer to yours, but it could be. Yours might be a few years earlier.
It appears that in 1908 they did not have any guard over the gears.
I don't know when they added the guard, which yours has and it was just over the front and not the rear.
It looks like the 1920 redesign has a total enclosure of the gears.
The 1920 variant has a total redesign of the head, not just the guard.
As you said the 1920 head is close to the 1925 head, except for the placement of the back gear lever.

Rob
 

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Robert Lang

Stainless
Joined
Apr 3, 2007
Location
Minneapolis, MN
Possibly there were a few variants of this guard. It looks like the design shown in the 1908 articles was still being used in the 1915 article. But between 1915 and 1925 there were possible 2+ variants of guards used.

I suspect there were only two variants, but I could be wrong.
The problem with any of the old pictures is when were they taken and when were they used.
For example, the 1915 article. The top two pictures are from 1908. The army truck picture could be a few years earlier too.
A 1911 article says "the Mechanical Transport Section of the Army Service Corps is fitting out motor-wagons to attend
the vehicles of the Mechanical Transport, and that 11 of these radial drills are to be fitted in these motors."
Could the 1915 picture be one of those motors?

One way that might help get a closer date for yours is a foot operated belt shifting lever that is attached to the front left lower leg.
The early pictures do not show this. It appears in the 1915 picture of the drill in the truck and in the 1920 article.
Does your leg show any indication of something having been bolted there?
If not, then yours would be earlier than 1915.

Rob
 

Rob Gough

Plastic
Joined
Aug 18, 2022
Good point about the time between pictures being taken and used. Looking at the truck picture from 1915 again it does appear to have a gear guard more like mine. I'll get some time in the workshop over the weekend and have a closer look at the legs and for other clues.
 

maynah

Stainless
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Location
Maine
Rob, I'm not familiar with the pivoting design. I don't think mine pivots.

Every time I look at this collection I find something new. While looking through the correspondence I found a letter to Drummond ordering some parts or tooling. The lathe owner stated to send the parts to Tom Senior because he was having something cast and Tom Senior could add the Drummond parts to his shipment. Looking at my tooling there is a unfinished steady rest. I wonder if that is what he was having made?
On Tony's site he has the Tom Senior company listing. It talks about Tom Senior of Atlas Works. If you notice the shaper blue print I posted it is titled "Atlas Shaping Attachment". Sadly I don't think I have all of the shaper parts. But I'm not sure of what everything I have is, so there's still hope.
 

Rob Gough

Plastic
Joined
Aug 18, 2022
Rob,
Did some measuring and inspection over the weekend. The LH leg has a hole in the right general location for the belt shifting lever pivot as shown in the 1915 and 1920 pictures. Therefore, it is most similar to 1915 picture. Also found the serial number... 104.
 

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Rob Gough

Plastic
Joined
Aug 18, 2022
Maynah,
George Thomas did a design for a indexing head very similar to one you have but for a Myford (can't remember which model). I'm guess he was inspired by the Drummond design. Hemingway Kits provide a casting set for it and you can see the item on their web site.

I've seen discussion about Tom Senior accessories for Drummond lathes before, but apart from a few vertical slides coming up for sale I don't know what other items were offered. That is an interesting thought about the shaper, I've not seen one before.
 

Robert Lang

Stainless
Joined
Apr 3, 2007
Location
Minneapolis, MN
Rob,
Did some measuring and inspection over the weekend. The LH leg has a hole in the right general location for the belt shifting lever pivot as shown in the 1915 and 1920 pictures. Therefore, it is most similar to 1915 picture. Also found the serial number... 104.

That helps. It is most similar to the 1915 photo of the truck, which I think is earlier than 1915.
Based on that and the serial number, I don't think your drill is any later than 1915. I would venture a guess around 1912.
You will notice the difference from the 1920 article.
In the 1915 truck picture there is a bracket on the belt shifter that is bolted to the side of the leg.
Your leg has this hole. It appears to be gone in the 1920 article.

Rob
 

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