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EMCO FB2 - help with a stuck collet...???

Hayden

Plastic
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Location
Cape Town, South Africa
Hi there guys,

I recently bought an EMCO FB2 milling machine on the cheap ($1000) but it has got a collet (with a bit stuck in it). The collet has been stuck for some time.

Now bare in mind, I am new to this game, and I really haven't got a clue...I have never used a milling machine before...only my Myford lathe.

Can anyone please explain to me (and I am talking baby steps here) how to go about getting this collet out...preferably someone who has an FB2 milling machine themselves and who may have experienced this sort of problem themselves before.

I am terrified about damaging the machine, and the manual isn't much help regarding problem-solving for newbies. Help!

Thanks in advance,

Hayden
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
General technique not specific to the FB2...Locate teh drawbar for the spindle where the tool and collet are. The drawbar is a special bolt that pulls the collet into the spindle taper and with continued tightening pulls the collet taper into the spindle taper allowing the collet to close on the tool and grip it.
Loosen the drawbar several turns. It will be right thread. It should be located at the furthest distance away from teh tool holder and in line with the spindle axis...should be easily gotten to and not covered with a plug or cover (in most cases)

Once the drawbar is loosened (do not remove it completely) use a copper, brass or lead hammer to strike the end of the drawbar in a direction towards the tools. Collets will stick in the spindle taper and must knocked free unless the drawbar is made to push the collet oput as well as pull it up (Deckel has this setup)

If the collet comes loose continue to loosen the drawbar and remove the collet. If it does not move, then some additional work is in order...leave teh drawbar loose and apply some penetrating oil like "Kroil" to the area where the collet meets the spindle. allow time to work and repeat the removal steps above. May take some time for the oil to do its work, be paitent. May become necessary to remove the quill from the machine to get the collet in the "UP" position so the oil will soak in.
Cheers Ross
 

rklopp

Diamond
Joined
Feb 27, 2001
Location
Redwood City, CA USA
I would only loosen the drawbar one turn to maximize thread engagement while I whacked on it. Just check that it's still loose before every whack. If you're nervous about spoiling the drawbar threads, unscrew it all the way and substitute a scrap piece of rod that is a close fit with the spindle bore, and whack on that instead. Be sure the scrap rod bears squarely on the rear of the collet and not some shoulder built into the spindle bore.
 

wrench

Titanium
Joined
Jul 9, 2002
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
This probably goes without saying... But 'whack' doesn't mean that you should call out the 500 pound gorillas! A couple of raps should do... If you it doesn't drop loose, don't beat the hell out of it!
You should start down the other corrective steps if the raps don't work.
 

Peter F

Aluminum
Joined
Jun 23, 2004
Location
Mittagong Australia
I am not too sure about the FB2 mill but years ago I had an Emco V10p with the milling attachment at the back. (This was a 4 speed unit, the FB2 will have6 speeds but is basicly the same). It had a quill with a 2Morse Taper spindle. The top end of the spindle had a threaded end. There was a blind nut which screwed onto this thread. Whatever collet hoder your mill has it will have an internally threaded arbor for the draw bolt. There was an extraction pin which was simply a rod long enough to go down through the spindle till it contacted the bottom of the internal thread on the arbor with the top end poking up about 1/8 inch above the end of the spindle. The blind nut was then screwed down onto it and with enough force , popped the collet holder out. I would advise against trying to hammer it out, no good for the bearings.

If the problem is that the collet is stuck in the arbor then grind up a little hook blade out of a screwdriver and pry it out throug one of the slits in the collet. Morse tapers tooling sticks when pulled up tight , as do some of the collets around. My Emco collet chuck was a Schaublin and the collets had to be levered out.

The extraction pin from memory was about5 inches long and about 8mm diameter. you should be able to make one, just check what the drawbar diameter is and make the rod to suit.

Peter
 

wrench

Titanium
Joined
Jul 9, 2002
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
Peter,
Great point... I was thinking of the Deckel look-alike machine. In retrospect, I remember what the FB2 is now. You are absolutely correct. I used to own a V10P and then a Super-11. Both had vertical heads, and the vertical head on the Super-11 machine is *indentical* to that of the FP2.

Therefore, Hayen, you snhould be on the lookout in your stuff for the previously mentioned rod and the little black blind nut. It has pretty fine threads in it. The threads that you see on the outside (top) of the spindle have only one purpose, to have that nut screwed onto it!

I also remember that I always wished I had an extra hand when using the nut. You need one to hold the toolholder when it pops loose, one to hold the spindle from turning (you should have a wide, flat spanner wrench someplace, as I recall, that fits on the bottom of the spindle, and one to turn the nut. Of course, you can also change the head to a low speed.

I am 95% sure that I have drawings for that head (and the instruction manual).

[added on edit] Yep, I have the manual for that. I can send a clip of the spindle cross section. It shows the rod and the cap, not that this requires a great deal of imagination... You have your email address registered so I'll send you the snip. Unfortunately I cannot send the whole manual. It is 13Meg.

FWIW:
Rod P/N: E3A-000-170
Nut P/N: E3A-010-300

I know South Africa has an Emco dealer as I have been helpign a guy repair his EmcoTurn CNC and a dealer was mentioned in-country.

Alan

[ 08-24-2007, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: wrench ]
 

Hayden

Plastic
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Location
Cape Town, South Africa
Dear all,

Many thanks for your replies. This proved a litle easier than I had thought it would. Peter F, I thought I would try the easy way first, which you suggested.

I used quite a bit of tapping of the old collet with an aluminium rod, after also applying a lot of Q20 to help lossen the offending collet. The bit eventually fell out, and we were able to pull the collet out with a tool that I fashioned on Peter F's advice.

I cleaned the inside up a little, and now the other collets go in easily, and with a gentle tap fall out very easily.

Many thanks for all of the advice that you guys gave. It is much apprecaited by a neophyte like myself.

I have one final question. Does the EMCO make quite a bit of noise i.e. is this standard fair for the EMCO milling machines...? I have a bit of grinding sound in the motor i.e. it is not quiet like a Myford ML7 lathe, or am I being over-sensitive here...or should the EMCO run like a Rolls-Royce with very little, if no noise at all...?

Thanks in advance for the comments.

Best,

Hayden Smith
 

Peter F

Aluminum
Joined
Jun 23, 2004
Location
Mittagong Australia
Hayden,

Good to hear that all went well.
Your question about noise is a bit more difficult to diagnose because noise to you may be excessive but to me, being deaf, may be OK!! The 4 speed head had fibre gears which were lubricated by grease stuffed into the box. It ran ,to me, reasonably quietly. The 6 speed head will have hardened steel spur gears running in oil with a seal at the bottom of the spindle. Steel spur gears can be fairly "noisy", particularly in this application of interupted cutting as experienced with milling cutters. However, the grinding noise you mention coming from the motor should be investigated. You should be able to unbolt the motor from the head and run it on its own. If it is quiet then the head needs to be pulled apart, and given a good examination for bearing damage and/or gear problems. The 6 speed head may have been run for extended periods in the horizontal position or with little oil in it. If you have a manual for it there will probably be some reference to this.

Alan will know more than me about the 6 speed head and will no doubt advise you as to the way to go about getting inside it.

I don't think you could put EMCO into the RR class but they are well engineered and should give you good service.

Peter F.
 

wrench

Titanium
Joined
Jul 9, 2002
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
The V10P gears are unobtainium, so although the gears are quieter, you should count yourself lucky that you have a 6 speed head (of course, the gears are probably deathly expensive). The fiber gears were there as 'safety points'. They would break in the event something terrible happened, or so was the marketing. Personally I think it would still screw up the machine plenty!

Anyhow, you can turn the head to 90 degrees and take off the side cover for a look-see at the gears, as I recall. The motor can also be removed fairly easily and that way you can check out its bearings. My guess is that you are just expecting it to be as quiet as the Myford. That will not be the case. The Myford is a belt driven lathe. The Emco milling head is completely gear driven. Gears make much more noise than belts. That said, it is rather subjective as to what is "noisy." You could well have something amiss. Unless a knowledgeable person were to be sitting right next to you, it is pretty hard to tell...

Alan
 

Loffy

Plastic
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Location
Sweden
Check that the fan cover is free from the motor fan on your FB2. Verify by simply removing the cover and if the sound goes away then you know.

On my FB2 I replaced every single bearings including those in the motor and its not hard to do if your problem is worn out a bearing.

I replaced all other worn part and there is nothing in there that should be able to make a grinding sound even is you have defective gears. My best bet is the fan and then a bad bearing.

Keep in mind that the oil pump adaptor om the motor axle end is left hand groove.. Its hard to get a new one from Emco if you break it
 

Tim in D

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 11, 2003
Location
Dallas, Tx
My FB2 reminded me of my mother's electric mixer (1950's)when it ran. At the higher speeds, it was a little distracting to run. A loud whirrring/gnashing sound.Not something I would want to work around all day!!

Tim
 

Buddude

Plastic
Joined
Sep 27, 2022
Sorry for responding to such an old thread as this, but the Emco FB2 manual is very clear to never hit or hammer the draw bolt to remove a stuck tool/collet holder. Apparently there are some delicate precision needle bearings in the quill assembly that are subject to damage if hammered. Apparently the correct method to remove a stuck or tight tool is to turn the top cover nut that covers the draw bolt which in turn forces the bolt down... Unfortunately my machine is missing this cover nut and the seem hard to come by... Pretty sure I've just learned this the hard way as I hammered my recently acquired EMCO Super 11 with FB2 attachment due to a stuck ESX25 collet holder and now the quill no longer moves freely up and down and binds near the top and bottom. So I'm potentially looking at buying a replacement quill assembly. Hopefully this will help someone else in the future. There is quite a discussion on the issue in the Model-Engineer forum at https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=167422
 








 
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