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End Of An Era in American Manufacturing---The last 747

standardparts

Diamond
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
The L-1011 coulda been a contender, RR just about killed Lockheed when they went on strike and held up RB-211 delivery. One of my oldest friends father was VP commercial sales at Lockheed. Had the delivery schedule been on time it would have had a different outcome. IT was a good airframe and the RAF and others still use them as tankers.

The "other" wide bodies like the L-1011 and DC-10/MD-11 never had the success the 74 did. The range alone put it in a class by itself for many years. Like the DC-3 the 747 will be flying long after many of its successors are just memories.

Steve
KC-10 (DC-10) air tanker a couple hundred(?) in service and almost 400 KC-135 (707 ) tankers still flying.

B767 & B777 two great wide bodies from Boeing.
 

Comatose

Titanium
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Location
Akron, OH
What do you mean by "clean sheet"?
A clean sheet design is one that isn't directly derived from a previous design. Starting with a blank piece of paper, as it were.

For example, a 737 Max 10 is a new airplane, but it was more-or-less derived from the 737 lineage. An A-380 was a clean sheet design, as was the 777.

So someone might make a freighter version of the A380, or make a super guppy out of an old 747, or something like that. But nobody is going to start with basic design principles and end up with a four engined aircraft anymore.

I could be wrong, of course, but it won't be a tube-and-pods subsonic airliner.
 

Shipp

Aluminum
Joined
Jun 23, 2022
Location
Northern California
A clean sheet design is one that isn't directly derived from a previous design. Starting with a blank piece of paper, as it were.

For example, a 737 Max 10 is a new airplane, but it was more-or-less derived from the 737 lineage. An A-380 was a clean sheet design, as was the 777.

So someone might make a freighter version of the A380, or make a super guppy out of an old 747, or something like that. But nobody is going to start with basic design principles and end up with a four engined aircraft anymore.

I could be wrong, of course, but it won't be a tube-and-pods subsonic airliner.
Thank you sir
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Location
Airstrip One, Oceania
As mentioned above, the L1011 and DC10 came out virtually the same time and all were 2 aisle widebody planes. So it was what people were doing at that time.

Incorrect. DC-10 and L 1011 came out several years later, *in response to* the 747. (They were also pretty much the same plane, altho Lockheed's was better built).

This is similar to pony cars. Mustang created the market, or at least discovered it, then camaro and barracuda and challenger followed behind. "Everyone" was *not* "making wide-body jets" at that time. There was, in fact, a great deal of resistance to the idea.
 

standardparts

Diamond
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Yep - when I was in the DO for new instruments this was the phrase - "lets get a clean sheet of paper on the board".
What was amazing was no one would ever comment on concept though....no "helping out".
BUT, you could be assured that as soon as lines were placed on paper, someone would be suggesting "move this there"....
:D
"you could be assured that as soon as lines were placed on paper, someone would be suggesting "move this there"....
Yeah...so much they made a movie about it:

 

gustafson

Diamond
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
Location
People's Republic
Incorrect. DC-10 and L 1011 came out several years later, *in response to* the 747. (They were also pretty much the same plane, altho Lockheed's was better built).

This is similar to pony cars. Mustang created the market, or at least discovered it, then camaro and barracuda and challenger followed behind. "Everyone" was *not* "making wide-body jets" at that time. There was, in fact, a great deal of resistance to the idea.
They may have been a response to the 747 but they were all designed before the first 747 ever flew. 747 first flight 2/69 L1011 11/70. DC10 8/70
Yes 747 was first, but yes everyone was building wide bodies
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Location
Airstrip One, Oceania
They may have been a response to the 747 but they were all designed before the first 747 ever flew. 747 first flight 2/69 L1011 11/70. DC10 8/70

For those who are challenged by dates, that's two fucking years. OF COURSE after word got out that PanAm and Boeing were building a monster, the competition had to respond. Absolutely no, "everyone" was damn well NOT building widebodies at the same time.

In fact, PanAm had been running DC's for years, including the rare DC-2.5, so I'd be shocked if Mr Trippe hadn't proposed it to Douglas as well.

Fact remains that it was J Trippe who deserves credit (or blame, depending on your viewpoint) for this development.

Yes 747 was first, but yes everyone was building wide bodies

bull fornicating feces
 
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triumph406

Titanium
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Location
ca
Best job (as a contractor) I ever had was working at the McD Wind Tunnel group (Long Beach) on the MD-12 which was going to be a challenger to the 747. Was there maybe 9 months. Great place to work.


One highlight was watching the C-17's first flight from the 3rd floor library of building 36. The lowlight was when they cancelled the MD-12, and I had to go back to the company who had loaned me out on contract

Ended that day playing pool in Joe Jost's in Long Beach. Well known for their pickled Eggs.

 

Trueturning

Diamond
Joined
Jul 2, 2019
Best job (as a contractor) I ever had was working at the McD Wind Tunnel group (Long Beach) on the MD-12 which was going to be a challenger to the 747. Was there maybe 9 months. Great place to work.


One highlight was watching the C-17's first flight from the 3rd floor library of building 36. The lowlight was when they cancelled the MD-12, and I had to go back to the company who had loaned me out on contract

Ended that day playing pool in Joe Jost's in Long Beach. Well known for their pickled Eggs.

I like pickled eggs yet they are definately not really on my diet. I do enjoy eggs though as a cheating venture rarely.
 

Superbowl

Cast Iron
Joined
Feb 12, 2020
Back in the late 1970's when air travel was still regulated and Airlines had to fly their schedule, I flew from Seattle to DC on a 747 with only two other passengers. They put us all in first class. There were more stewardess that passengers on board. Unfortunately the upstairs cabin was closed, but I sneaked up the spiral stairs and took a look around. That was the only time I ever got into an upper cabin.
 

gustafson

Diamond
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
Location
People's Republic
Wait who started with the cute little slurs?
And who used the Mustang comparison?
Mustang released 1964
Vehicle design cycle circa 1964: 3 years
Camaro released 1967
Those jets were in final design before the first 747 ever flew.
Not after it was a success
747 , first, best, biggest, but not only
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Location
Airstrip One, Oceania
Wait who started with the cute little slurs?
And who used the Mustang comparison?
Mustang released 1964
Vehicle design cycle circa 1964: 3 years
Camaro released 1967
Those jets were in final design before the first 747 ever flew.
Not after it was a success
747 , first, best, biggest, but not only

Oh stick it. Pan Am is the one who should get credit (or blame, actually the 747 was never as profitable as they hoped and is much more useful as a freighter - the Air China -7's were actually 1/3 freighters, one time a fellow pass asked me "want to see something ?" -- in the rear of the plane were 9 horses he was bringing to bei jing 😁), the FACT is that the risk pushed Boeing to the breaking point, they never would have done it on their own, the "existing designs" were for military use which is a whole different ballgame and no, "everybody" was NOT "building widebodies at the time."

That's ignorant crap. PanAm and Boeing took a huge risk pioneering the idea. Good for both of them, but I hate seeing PanAm get the short end of the credit. It was their vision.
 








 
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