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Esprit Cam, a review

they're not cowards, they're looking out for their own interests.
They are cowards. If they were any good they'd want to make life better for customers.

When you are good, you're not afraid of competition. In fact you welcome it. Do you think Patrick Mahomes wants a rule that it's illegal to tackle red jerseys ?

It's third-rate crybabies that want things tilted for their own benefit.
 
Fair play on Haas CAD, but either way Haas are making the info readily available for Autodesk, which is not true of many MTBs. And yeah, maybe AD did just develop about 50 haas posts on their own, but look how well it’s worked for both Haas and Fusion.
You are giving AD way too much credit like they have built a working relationship with HAAS that no other CAM software has done when in reality everything is readily available from HAAS to EVERYONE, including EVERY CAM company if wanted.
 
They are cowards. If they were any good they'd want to make life better for customers.

When you are good, you're not afraid of competition. In fact you welcome it. Do you think Patrick Mahomes wants a rule that it's illegal to tackle red jerseys ?

It's third-rate crybabies that want things tilted for their own benefit.
Let's step back a little bit

Your argument is MTB should work directly with all CAM companies to fine tune posts so they are correct?

You came to this conclusion because many users have complained about their posts not posting correctly.........

Have any of them complained about programming the feature in question, programming the part or any aspect of that portion of programming? No, the issue comes when they post the program and input it into the machine, it is not doing what they expected, what they programmed it to do. That has nothing to do with the software itself, it has 100% to do with the post not functioning correctly, and if the post doesn't function correctly who is at fault for that? The POST BUILDER, which in a lot of cases is an employee at a reseller, not the actual CAM company, in some cases, sure it is, like the other post about SolidCAM. SolidCAM doesn't have resellers and we really don't know all the details to that story anyway to say it was a post issue or not........

It's not that a user can't program the part, it's being programmed "correctly" users are seeing what they want for toolpaths and simulating correctly, it's not posting as programmed.

So what really needs to happen, is the CAM companies need to develop a better training program for the resellers maybe? In many cases with CAMWorks, I have talked to quite a few users that have had post issues, not posting correctly, reseller can't get it right and it is sent off to HCL directly and they get a fully functioning post.

But again never do you hear they can't program the feature right and the CAM company can't figure it out.
 
Let's step back a little bit

Your argument is MTB should work directly with all CAM companies to fine tune posts so they are correct?

You came to this conclusion because many users have complained about their posts not posting correctly.........

Have any of them complained about programming the feature in question, programming the part or any aspect of that portion of programming? No, the issue comes when they post the program and input it into the machine, it is not doing what they expected, what they programmed it to do. That has nothing to do with the software itself, it has 100% to do with the post not functioning correctly, and if the post doesn't function correctly who is at fault for that? The POST BUILDER, which in a lot of cases is an employee at a reseller, not the actual CAM company, in some cases, sure it is, like the other post about SolidCAM. SolidCAM doesn't have resellers and we really don't know all the details to that story anyway to say it was a post issue or not........

It's not that a user can't program the part, it's being programmed "correctly" users are seeing what they want for toolpaths and simulating correctly, it's not posting as programmed.

So what really needs to happen, is the CAM companies need to develop a better training program for the resellers maybe? In many cases with CAMWorks, I have talked to quite a few users that have had post issues, not posting correctly, reseller can't get it right and it is sent off to HCL directly and they get a fully functioning post.

But again never do you hear they can't program the feature right and the CAM company can't figure it out.
some people just live in lala land where altruism is the driver of humanity. thats great for fantasies and dreams, but simply doesnt work in the real world.
 
Let's step back a little bit

Your argument is MTB should work directly with all CAM companies to fine tune posts so they are correct?
No. Much simpler than that, and more effective. And it's not even my idea, it is what was planned to happen next in the world of cnc many years ago. For various reasons, didn't happen but smarter people than me thought this up.

All cam programs have an output. Standardize the output, much like g-code was standard (until the japs came along and screwed it up). Actually we are halfway there, all cam programs can already output tool movement as a CL file. Standardize the rest so that, for example, a tool change is simple /CHANGETOOL, NO 6 or however you want to do it, and the machine builder will do all the "move z to change point, turn changer to tool 6", etc etc. In fact, it'd probably be even more elementary on the cam output, more like tool=1/2" ball end x 6" long. Change now.

Whatever.

Anyway, that all exists already for all cadcam programs. It's the input to the post processor.

So the next step in theory was for all the cam program guys get together and come up with a standard format for the output from all cam programs.

With that done, your cadcam program can be used with any post that works with XYZ Machine Tool.

The plan was for the next step to be, the mtb created the post for that machine and put it into the control. That's really the best way because no one knows the machine as well as the mtb. This is what you'd really call "integration".

But even if you only took it as far as standardized outputs from cadcam systems, you'd make the whole postprocessor fiasco a whole lot better. Instead of a post for every single cam program, they'd be tied to the machine.

Sure, there'd be people who wanted to tune them up for complex machines like an integrex or people who would require more finley-tuned posts but in general, this would go a long way towards making life better.

Better for everyone, actually, since the whole effing postprocessor problem would be a lot easier and software companies could concentrate on actually making their main product work better, instead of farting around with 30,000 unique weirdass posts. And way better for us users, for sure.

Ain't gonna happen tho. Them days when people cooperated to make things work better are long gone.

empower said:
some people just live in lala land where altruism is the driver of humanity. thats great for fantasies and dreams, but simply doesnt work in the real world.
Lalaland or no, that's how we have inches that are the same size, fasteners that fit together, railroad cars that can go across the country over many lines, radios that send and receive to each other, sheets of plywood that fit the walls, pipes that connect without leaking, appliances that plug in to sockets all across the country without exploding, stuff like that. It's called "standards" and it's maybe 1 part altruism to 9 parts practicality. It's been done before, many many times.

In fact, that's how "g-code" came about. It's not that difficult.

I agree, currently the software world is far too shortsighted to ever accomplish anything like this, but that's because they are stupid, not because of altruism.
 
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Ain't gonna happen tho. Them days when people cooperated to make things work better are long gone.
It's competition, that's business in every industry. Every business believes they have the superior product, whether the consumers believe it or not.

Apple for example, believes iMessage is superior messaging system, we don't need to get into Apple/Android discussion, I really don't care, just an example. Google is suing them to share it.

You @EmGo live in a boring world where everything would be the same, and people would essentially lose choice, opinion, freedom, every business would be the same, there would be no Apple, Samsung, everyone would be sharing everything, everything that drives our economy, not saying its great, would be abolished, stock markets would be stagnant, companies would have very minimal profits.

Now lets go back to CAM, you might as well lobby them all to share any and all exclusive features. iMachining, let's force SolidCAM to share iMachining with all, why can't it be available in MasterCAM, CAMWorks, BobCAM, its just not fair!
 
No. Much simpler than that, and more effective. And it's not even my idea, it is what was planned to happen next in the world of cnc many years ago. For various reasons, didn't happen but smarter people than me thought this up.

All cam programs have an output. Standardize the output, much like g-code was standard (until the japs came along and screwed it up). Actually we are halfway there, all cam programs can already output tool movement as a CL file. Standardize the rest so that, for example, a tool change is simple /CHANGETOOL, NO 6 or however you want to do it, and the machine builder will do all the "move z to change point, turn changer to tool 6", etc etc. In fact, it'd probably be even more elementary on the cam output, more like tool=1/2" ball end x 6" long. Change now.

Whatever.

Anyway, that all exists already for all cadcam programs. It's the input to the post processor.

So the next step in theory was for all the cam program guys get together and come up with a standard format for the output from all cam programs.

With that done, your cadcam program can be used with any post that works with XYZ Machine Tool.

The plan was for the next step to be, the mtb created the post for that machine and put it into the control. That's really the best way because no one knows the machine as well as the mtb. This is what you'd really call "integration".

But even if you only took it as far as standardized outputs from cadcam systems, you'd make the whole postprocessor fiasco a whole lot better. Instead of a post for every single cam program, they'd be tied to the machine.

Sure, there'd be people who wanted to tune them up for complex machines like an integrex or people who would require more finley-tuned posts but in general, this would go a long way towards making life better.

Better for everyone, actually, since the whole effing postprocessor problem would be a lot easier and software companies could concentrate on actually making their main product work better, instead of farting around with 30,000 unique weirdass posts. And way better for us users, for sure.

Ain't gonna happen tho. Them days when people cooperated to make things work better are long gone.


Lalaland or no, that's how we have inches that are the same size, fasteners that fit together, railroad cars that can go across the country over many lines, radios that send and receive to each other, sheets of plywood that fit the walls, pipes that connect without leaking, appliances that plug in to sockets all across the country without exploding, stuff like that. It's called "standards" and it's maybe 1 part altruism to 9 parts practicality. It's been done before, many many times.

In fact, that's how "g-code" came about. It's not that difficult.

I agree, currently the software world is far too shortsighted to ever accomplish anything like this, but that's because they are stupid, not because of altruism.
you didnt get my altruism point. wanting MTB's and cam companies to standardize everything to all work on every single platform is asking them to work based on altruism, not profit. there are so many variables in the machine/cam world to make it all interchangeable its mind boggling. and to expect MTB's to ensure that each machine comes with a perfect post for cam package xyz is living in lala land, thinking that people are in business simply to appease everyone's little wants. that simply isnt the case, and never will be.
 
You @EmGo live in a boring world
Well yeah, you've got a point there. I mean, just this morning I stuck a couple pieces of bread in the toaster and pushed down, all I got out of it was two pieces of toast instead of the whole kitchen exploding from boiling fat, food was flyin' everywhere I left without my hat ...
 
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Here ya go, perfect example:

When I added 4 axis simultaneous module to my CAM seat they informed me my post would need to be updated. My reseller quoted me $2k to do it! I negotiated down to $625 cause $2k was absolutely ridiculous....$625 was still ridiculous.

I submitted my PO for the updated post at 5:16pm and I had the new post by 6:08pm, not even an hour! You're going to sit there and tell me they lose money on post?! 😂🤣
I am not familiar with your machine, your reseller, your software.....I am telling you without a doubt that the cam company i worked with lose money on posts...laugh all you want...I was there...I saw it.
Anyone who thinks post developement is easy is welcome to change careers and go into it.......apparently some think its an easy money maker. Do it...

Its similar to the shop owners we see on this site....they have customers that are not familiar with what it actually takes to manufacture a part and they get sticker shock when they see the quote. Then they push back on the quote.....those who know what it takes to develope a post may not like the price ($2K for an upgrade to 4 axis is attempted rape, $500 was a common number i saw) but they understand it.
 
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I am not familiar with your machine, your reseller, your software.....I am telling you without a doubt that the cam company i worked with lose money on posts...laugh all you want...I was there...I saw it.
Anyone who thinks post developement is easy is welcome to change careers and go into it.......apparently some think its an easy money maker. Do it...
Well I'm not saying it's not possible to lose money on building post, of course it can but that's a company issue, in this case the resellers or CAM companies problem, if they can't make money off a service they offer, that tells me they have inexperienced builders or something else is going on and with any business, if there is a loss, they need to reevaluate the process and procedure.
 
Well I'm not saying it's not possible to lose money on building post, of course it can but that's a company issue, in this case the resellers or CAM companies problem, if they can't make money off a service they offer, that tells me they have inexperienced builders or something else is going on and with any business, if there is a loss, they need to reevaluate the process and procedure.
"something else is going on...."


As I stated....its a neccesary evil. A portion of the post developement cost is built into the software cost and maintenance. I am not crying poverty here....I am just saying...the post developement cost is higher than people think. and SOME of the problems with post developement include...Legacy post updates for new software release, Machine Tool builder instalation parameters not being consistant, user not understanding that the parameter settings at the machine have a direct impact on the posted code, (think degrees / minute vs inverse time for 4th axis). and lastly someone that doesnt understand the software but is determined to think they do.

I spent a good deal of time with post developers....these guys are not stupid. (I suppose some are....just like every other profession)
If it was that simple a software company would have a library of perfect posts and fire 90% of their developers.
As you and others have said or implied....software companies are greedy as hell and the only thing that comes close to the enjoyment they get from collecting $ would be not having to share that $ with anyone else.(post developers etc.)
 
The post processor company Houdini16 linked to sure doesn't spend much money on their website...I hope they put more effort in their posts :rolleyes5:
 
Shit that thing looks like its from the early 90's.
Seems suitable, the whole postprocessor thing is from the fifties, maybe sixties.

I woke up this morning tho and ya know what ? Marvel is right. Ever since people started using pdf's to exchange files, the world has become boring, dull, grey, featureless. It was so much better when we got to struggle with rtf's, word 95, word 97, docx, txt, html, csv, dtp, fm, ppp, pub, indd, sla ... man, the world was so bright and beautiful before with all these creative options and competing formats, bringing us all a better life every day in every way, Stinkin' pdf has just ruined it for everyone :(

What I am talking about is directly analogous to Postscript. Anyone who has ever struggled with print drivers knows exactly how it should work. Postscript kicks ass over all that other garbage.
 
Seems suitable, the whole postprocessor thing is from the fifties, maybe sixties.

I woke up this morning tho and ya know what ? Marvel is right. Ever since people started using pdf's to exchange files, the world has become boring, dull, grey, featureless. It was so much better when we got to struggle with rtf's, word 95, word 97, docx, txt, html, csv, dtp, fm, ppp, pub, indd, sla ... man, the world was so bright and beautiful before with all these creative options and competing formats, bringing us all a better life every day in every way, Stinkin' pdf has just ruined it for everyone :(

What I am talking about is directly analogous to Postscript. Anyone who has ever struggled with print drivers knows exactly how it should work. Postscript kicks ass over all that other garbage.
I’ll join your battle for PDF’s to be a norm across the board, nothing more annoying when I receive an email asking me to fill out a document that wants to open in Google Docs and I sign in to my Google account for it to tell me my email doesn’t have access and to request it and the sender emails me and verifies my email to give me permission and never gives me permission and then proceeds to email the wrong email for 2 weeks, just to send me a .DOC file to fill in the blanks and when I start typing all the words in the document move, so I use the insert function but what I type is too big and screws up the document anyway. So YES, let’s standardize PDF use!

While we’re at, can we get KFC to share their secret recipe with Cane’s…….come on, it’s not fair they won’t share………It’s Finger Licking Good!
 
What’s next after we standardize posts across CAM companies @EmGo? Do we try to convince all CAM companies to use the same file type next, so we can open CAM files in any CAM system and edit paths and post programs?
 
A portion of the post developement cost is built into the software cost and maintenance.
In all my dealings with resellers, posts were additional cost to the user, custom posts that is. It was not included in the software cost and/or maintenance. With that being said, I would highly recommend anyone buying a new software to negotiate your posts to be included, that is what I did, I negotiated 3 posts to be included with my purchase of my seat.
I spent a good deal of time with post developers....these guys are not
What CAM company and or reseller?
 
So what really needs to happen, is the CAM companies need to develop a better training program for the resellers maybe? In many cases with CAMWorks, I have talked to quite a few users that have had post issues, not posting correctly, reseller can't get it right and it is sent off to HCL directly and they get a fully functioning post.

Elaborating on that a bit, as well as my own previous post, I'd say they need to split that focus maybe some training, sure, but also on improving their post systems. Like I said, a complicated and/or obtuse post system/post dev environment is going to make for lower quality posts no matter how good the dev people are.

I have bias because it is my most familiar cam system, but Featurecam uses a post editor called XBuild, and while certainly not perfect it is head and shoulders above anything else I've seen.

I can compare this to Camworks directly as I helped one of my guys make some solidworks cam posts a couple of years ago, and that was fucking horrendous in comparison.
 








 
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