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Fabrication video, is it a sales gimmick?

Aerospace / medical customers will be casual about tenths. .

The only tight tolerance aerospace work I've seen that required very tight tolerances has been servo valve components.

Airframe components I've seen +/-.010 +/-.030 tolerances regularly. Everybody seems to think there some high tolerance mystique involved in 'aerospace machining', there isn't.
 
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To be honest with those arguing, his drawing is missing, some of the things he later complains about, So he was misleading the shop on the tolerances needed.
geometrically, what he complained about compared to the drawing, there is some missing data.
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So I do not have my glasses with me today,but is there a sheet tolerance called out other than fractional? I don't see a call out for the 90° anywhere, So technically it could be nearly anything since I do not see a sheet tolerance.....ok now I am just being a jerk lol
 
So I do not have my glasses with me today,but is there a sheet tolerance called out other than fractional? I don't see a call out for the 90° anywhere, So technically it could be nearly anything since I do not see a sheet tolerance.....ok now I am just being a jerk lol

It's pretty simple.
No tolerances on the drawing, ask the question "so what are the tolerances req'd"
Otherwise how can you quote the part?
 
The fabrication forum on this site is weird. In the machining forums, "Harry Homeshop" is very much not allowed. Suggestions of kludge methods are shut down very quickly. Small shops that are running all manual machines are encouraged to give modern CNC technology a shot. It's a site of professionals in working manufacturing environments.

But down here, it seems we run full Harry Homeshop anytime a fixture table gets brought up. 'Don't need no stupid table full of holes,' 'flat plate is all you need,' 'I can build anything on two sawhorses.' Then there's the guy that has a rusty scrap of plate sitting on an empty oil drum. I'm not kidding, a forum regular posted that on a fixture table thread.

That's equivalent to going into the general section and suggesting that no one needs a VMC, because those jobs can all be run on a shaper. This is 2023. A good machinist can make a fine part on a shaper, but come on, no one is using them in a manufacturing environment.

A fixture table is an asset to a productive shop. And no, mine are not fireball's.
 
The fabrication forum on this site is weird. In the machining forums, "Harry Homeshop" is very much not allowed. Suggestions of kludge methods are shut down very quickly. Small shops that are running all manual machines are encouraged to give modern CNC technology a shot. It's a site of professionals in working manufacturing environments.

But down here, it seems we run full Harry Homeshop anytime a fixture table gets brought up. 'Don't need no stupid table full of holes,' 'flat plate is all you need,' 'I can build anything on two sawhorses.' Then there's the guy that has a rusty scrap of plate sitting on an empty oil drum. I'm not kidding, a forum regular posted that on a fixture table thread.

That's equivalent to going into the general section and suggesting that no one needs a VMC, because those jobs can all be run on a shaper. This is 2023. A good machinist can make a fine part on a shaper, but come on, no one is using them in a manufacturing environment.

A fixture table is an asset to a productive shop. And no, mine are not fireball's.

It can be an asset to a shop making a lot of one-off small fabs. For big ones, not going to help at all. In reality, even for small runs it doesn't help a massive amount unless the fabricator is not very experienced. A lot of the old school guys I used to know would just tack their fixture bars right to the fab plate. They were very, very fast. And very accurate. This isn't like the difference between CNC and manual machining unless the fab shop is either inexperienced or very disorganized. A CNC machine gets the machining done quickly, not the setup. The fab table does not affect the welding time, only the setup time.
 
It's pretty simple.
No tolerances on the drawing, ask the question "so what are the tolerances req'd"
Otherwise how can you quote the part?
In machining yes, in the fabrication world not so much.
Most jobbing fab shops such as the ones in the video don't even get drawings most of the time, never mind drawings with tolerances.
 
The fab table does not affect the welding time, only the setup time.
Ding ding ding. The setup time. Setup being the biggest bottleneck for production in lots of fabricated parts. And time, being the most expensive aspect of many parts. The fixture table justifies it's existence by saving time which saves/makes $$.

Okay, so it doesn't save time on weld out. That's like saying there's no point in buying a VMC because it doesn't save any time during plating or powder coating.

And okay, there's some parts that don't benefit from fixturing in general. Ok, so we won't buy a VMC because it doesn't save any time on lathe parts. That is a good decision for a shop that only turns, but doesn't make VMCs useless. In my shop, there's a flat table next to the fixture table. They both get heavy use.

There's nothing I can build on my fixture table that I can't build without it. There's plenty of things that I can build significantly faster on my fixture table than I can on the flat one. I have more money in my pocket as a result of buying said fixture system than I would have had I left the cash alone, and for anyone above the level of Homeshop Harry, that's ultimately the bottom line.

I will list the caveat that the fixture table needs to be tooled up with a plethora of jigs and fixtures to be useful. If you just end up with a few clamps and some stops, it's not going to be a big deal. Get enough parts and pieces to make use of the full system, and it's a very useful piece of equipment.


But, I'll bow out now. I'll keep an eye out for the next press brake thread so I can learn about how a 1976 Dries and Krump mechanical brake is all we'd ever need.
 
Ding ding ding. The setup time. Setup being the biggest bottleneck for production in lots of fabricated parts. And time, being the most expensive aspect of many parts. The fixture table justifies it's existence by saving time which saves/makes $$.

Okay, so it doesn't save time on weld out. That's like saying there's no point in buying a VMC because it doesn't save any time during plating or powder coating.

And okay, there's some parts that don't benefit from fixturing in general. Ok, so we won't buy a VMC because it doesn't save any time on lathe parts. That is a good decision for a shop that only turns, but doesn't make VMCs useless. In my shop, there's a flat table next to the fixture table. They both get heavy use.

There's nothing I can build on my fixture table that I can't build without it. There's plenty of things that I can build significantly faster on my fixture table than I can on the flat one. I have more money in my pocket as a result of buying said fixture system than I would have had I left the cash alone, and for anyone above the level of Homeshop Harry, that's ultimately the bottom line.

I will list the caveat that the fixture table needs to be tooled up with a plethora of jigs and fixtures to be useful. If you just end up with a few clamps and some stops, it's not going to be a big deal. Get enough parts and pieces to make use of the full system, and it's a very useful piece of equipment.


But, I'll bow out now. I'll keep an eye out for the next press brake thread so I can learn about how a 1976 Dries and Krump mechanical brake is all we'd ever need.

You can snark all you want, it doesn't change the fact that an experienced fab guy can set up a jig/fixture on a flat table by tacking, or on a t-slotted table by clamping, just about as fast as you can on your expensive table. And the bottleneck in fabrication is not setup time. The actual welding almost always takes way longer than the setup unless doing little tiny parts.
 
You can snark all you want, it doesn't change the fact that an experienced fab guy can set up a jig/fixture on a flat table by tacking, or on a t-slotted table by clamping, just about as fast as you can on your expensive table. And the bottleneck in fabrication is not setup time. The actual welding almost always takes way longer than the setup unless doing little tiny parts.
eKretz, I think you must have different experience, type of work, and workflow then the guys (self included) that are proponents of the fixture table.

Maybe for the parts that you deal with the fixture table brings nothing on value. But people like Fish On are fabricating product and they are saving time with them. I (the shop I own) fabbed $2.5M of stuff this year. We did maybe $120k of that on a little $3k fixture table and it easily saved more then $3k of time this year.

One part we have is a 2" stainless pipe with an offset in it. 16' long. Offsets the pipe something like 20". And there are various brackets that go on the pipe at given locations and orientations. When we designed the part we put those brackets on locations that align with the grid. We give the grid on the table letters for columns and numbers for rows, just like Excel. So the setup sheet going to the weldor says put thing or fixture component in this location. They just drop the stuff there and a few minutes later they are ready to weld expensive SS components perfectly. When the weldor is done he pulls the fixture components off and drops them onto a shelf below the table. We've got all kinds of plate tables but there is absolutely no way in hell that the job could be setup and torn down and cost less than how we are doing it on the little Rhino table.

There is absolutely a reason why the people using the tables use them. And why there are a bunch of companies (Fireball Tool) included who like them. This may not match your experience, but it doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.
 
eKretz, I think you must have different experience, type of work, and workflow then the guys (self included) that are proponents of the fixture table.

Maybe for the parts that you deal with the fixture table brings nothing on value. But people like Fish On are fabricating product and they are saving time with them. I (the shop I own) fabbed $2.5M of stuff this year. We did maybe $120k of that on a little $3k fixture table and it easily saved more then $3k of time this year.

One part we have is a 2" stainless pipe with an offset in it. 16' long. Offsets the pipe something like 20". And there are various brackets that go on the pipe at given locations and orientations. When we designed the part we put those brackets on locations that align with the grid. We give the grid on the table letters for columns and numbers for rows, just like Excel. So the setup sheet going to the weldor says put thing or fixture component in this location. They just drop the stuff there and a few minutes later they are ready to weld expensive SS components perfectly. When the weldor is done he pulls the fixture components off and drops them onto a shelf below the table. We've got all kinds of plate tables but there is absolutely no way in hell that the job could be setup and torn down and cost less than how we are doing it on the little Rhino table.

There is absolutely a reason why the people using the tables use them. And why there are a bunch of companies (Fireball Tool) included who like them. This may not match your experience, but it doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.

I didn't say anyone else was wrong... Many here like to read things in to replies by inferring meaning, but don't do a very accurate job of it. I did mention in a previous reply that for inexperienced fab guys *and* for small fab jobs, especially those with very small quantities, I could see such a table being useful to speed things up. When multiples of larger parts are being made, setup time is not that big of a factor in the overall job, and this is much less important. I'll bet you can now accurately infer which type of fabrication I've historically been most involved with...
 
It is mind boggling to me how much effort is put into hating this guy. I would think people in the same field would give some support. I dont have anything invested in fireball tool, but I don't really see the reason for all the hate. He just seems like a guy doing what he likes, making tools and showing them on youtube.
 
It is mind boggling to me how much effort is put into hating this guy. I would think people in the same field would give some support. I dont have anything invested in fireball tool, but I don't really see the reason for all the hate. He just seems like a guy doing what he likes, making tools and showing them on youtube.
I'm not a welder so nothing there, but there are a lot of Youtubers selling something, and some of them don't know shit about what they are talking about,
and are disingenuous in what they say and do on the channel, I don't watch Fireball, but he is related to other channels I know that are extremely disingenuous,
these channels usually are fairly disliked and get ripped on in the forums.
Maybe he is one of those channels, Just sayin :cheers:
 
At the risk of (accurately) being called a Homeshop Harry, I will state that my smaller (30x60) Fireball table is a pleasure to use. Years ago I built a fixture table which was okay for my purposes but when I got wind of Jason's iron tables I thought for quite a while about the arguments he was making for why he thought his table was a good tool vs. the shortcomings of the one I made. Of course the videos are plugging his products but ignore the pitch and focus instead on his rationale for the products themselves. The only drawback I can see to what he's selling is that iron by its nature is more expensive to produce and deliver than steel is, but has some benefits beyond what steel offers. Seems to me that he's mainly taking the old tried and true iron welding platten and incorporating the modern fixturing concepts. A logical evolutionary step. He is also building up a nice offering of fixtures & the nature of the system is that it is reasonably easy to make one's own fixtures. What's not to like other than the cost? To me, its not unlike other quality tools, cry once and enjoy using for a long time to come. I really cannot fault the quality of the products I've gotten from Fireball nor their customer service.

--Larry
 
It's fascinating the amount of hate nice welding tables get. I've never understood it and frankly I just wonder if it's a case of "I never needed one of these so why would anyone want one?". I think part of it is a lot of machinists view welding and fab work as "low tolerance" or hack work that any mouth breather can do, why would you spend good money on something like a weld table when a sheet of steel on sawhorses can do the same thing? And the short answer is: they can't do the same thing. Yes, a good fab guy can make good parts with poor tools, but why would you want to do your job with one hand behind your back? It is very much akin to running manual machine tools for production work vs utilizing CNC. Sure, a competent machinist can turn out parts to spec on a manual machine, but he can do it faster and far more profitably on CNC equipment.

I run a small fab and machine shop. We weld anything from parts you can hold in the palm of your hand to multi ton weldments that barely fit out the door. I have a 5' x 10' shop made table and an old 5' x 8' Acorn platen table. The shop made table is just a A36 steel plate, 1-1/4" thick that I had Blanchard ground from the steel supply set on a stout tube steel base. I had the Acorn table sandblasted, painted and my neighbor dusted it off on his HMC nice and flat. I will admit, the large flat tables are one of the biggest time savers and assets I could ask for in my shop.

I LOVE having a nice flat surface to jig and fixture on. I have a large assortment of angle plates, blocks, spacers, pins, clamps, fences and all sorts of fixturing. None of it bought as a "kit" just stuff I've accumulated over the years. The amount of time I can save using this stuff is crazy. I can jig up and tack any sort of frame in a manner of minutes. If I am running any sort of quantity, I can make serious money leveraging fixtures and setups to batch different parts. I've worked in the field doing pipefitting and structural fab, and yeah, you can't use a table for most of that stuff. But anything you CAN run on a table, you lose nothing by having it be a flat reference surface. There is only upside to having a flat table. The initial cost is higher, but it quickly is amortized out in the time savings. For a lot of weldments, easily half the time is in the setup and layout. The welding goes fast and is not really any faster or slower on a fixture table, but the time savings of utilizing modular fixturing is real.

I have a few Fireball squares and they're nice. Handy tools, nothing groundbreaking but worth what I paid. What Jason has done (quite effectively) is take all the little tools and shop fabricated jigs and simplified them into "welder grade" tools. I had always used cast iron angle blocks from the machine shop to set up on the table. Still do, even though I own some fireball squares. His stuff is nothing more than a nice reimagining of tools that exist in other industries.

Would I buy a table from Fireball? No, I'd get another Acorn or Weldsale. They're similar money, but SO MUCH BEEFIER. The clamps are heavy duty, the castings are massive, the ability to join them together is often overlooked.
 
I don't think the tables get any hate. I think it's mainly the guys making what amounts to commercials that get the hate. Like most commercials, they only play up the perceived benefits, and often overstate those benefits. That irritates some people. Doesn't bother me any, but I don't let much bother me any more these days. Many of these guys remind me of the old loud voiced commercial guys, just a little quieter, and with a lot longer commercials.
 
I don't think the tables get any hate. I think it's mainly the guys making what amounts to commercials that get the hate. Like most commercials, they only play up the perceived benefits, and often overstate those benefits. That irritates some people. Doesn't bother me any, but I don't let much bother me any more these days. Many of these guys remind me of the old loud voiced commercial guys, just a little quieter, and with a lot longer commercials.
This ↑↑↑ I have no issues with a decent weld table.......................

Actually I'd like a nice big table in my shop. Price really even isn't an issue for me, floor space is the hang up. Ya can't swing a dead cat in here with out smackin' something...................maybe a new shop should be on my 2024 checklist.............:scratchchin:
 
I don't think the tables get any hate. I think it's mainly the guys making what amounts to commercials that get the hate.
This is the part I love. I gave up having TV back when DirecTV tried to force me off of owned equipment and into their leased box. I like watching manufacturing content, even if it's viewed as commercials for their product. I go to trade shows and walk until my feet are gonna fall off to get this information. I can watch manufacturing content for far too many hours in a day and not see it all.

I'd gladly sit through a Titans of CNC marathon rather than be forced to watch Game of Thrones. "BOAM baybee!" :D
 








 
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