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First Lathe: 1942 Monarch 14C

No electrical spindle reverse?
Not sure if this was standard or an option, but after I got the lathe home I noticed that it didn't actually have a spindle reverse which confused me as I had assumed it was just a standard thing. Does anyone know if this era monarch usually come with a drum switch or a contactor based reverse?

View attachment 388337

Added a picture of the electrical box as I'm guessing that would probably be helpful! There are two switches that run into this box. Main switch on the front of the lathe and then a cool old art-deco AB down on the tailstock end (not the most convenient location in my mind) for the coolant pump which is mounted to the back of the rear pedestal.

I assume a drum switch is the easier of the two options to implement...
I'm not sure if my 16C that sleeps with the fishes had reverse or not. The electrical stuff was trashed and went directly into the dumpster.

Your machine is gonna stay 3 ph right? Then a reversing contactor is the only way to go. Much simpler since you just have to add control wiring and reversing operator and either get a bigger box for the contactor or add a box to the side. You can probably find a vintage stuff right here to do it.
 
I'm not sure if my 16C that sleeps with the fishes had reverse or not. The electrical stuff was trashed and went directly into the dumpster.

Your machine is gonna stay 3 ph right? Then a reversing contactor is the only way to go. Much simpler since you just have to add control wiring and reversing operator and either get a bigger box for the contactor or add a box to the side. You can probably find a vintage stuff right here to do it.
For sure keeping it 3 phase... assuming that Louis-Allis motor is ok it is too nice not to use. Even if it isn't I would replace it with 3 phase. Thanks for the feedback... Just had someone else I know who has a Monarch give me the same advice, so I'll have to start reading up on reversing contactors! I'll probably just add a bigger box to keep everything together and I'll move the switch for the coolant pump while I'm at it.. Reality is all the wiring in this thing should probably just be done for saftey/reliablity reasons so going the contactor route make sense!
 
Yes,
Lodge and Shipley Powerturn Model 2013; manufactured 1971 so its still in diapers; 9,600 lbs of Beast and will swing 20 1/2"s! Was advertised as a 16 " lathe so what a treat when I saw it in person!!
Nice. Especially when any surprises are on the upside. ha Just looked up the L&S powerturn. Very cool. That going in a garage or shop??? :)
 
Well,
it going in what used to be a big shop building, but like most of the others here; things are getting mighty tight inside these day!! :wall:
 
No electrical spindle reverse?
Not sure if this was standard or an option, but after I got the lathe home I noticed that it didn't actually have a spindle reverse which confused me as I had assumed it was just a standard thing. Does anyone know if this era monarch usually come with a drum switch or a contactor based reverse?

View attachment 388337

Added a picture of the electrical box as I'm guessing that would probably be helpful! There are two switches that run into this box. Main switch on the front of the lathe and then a cool old art-deco AB down on the tailstock end (not the most convenient location in my mind) for the coolant pump which is mounted to the back of the rear pedestal.

I assume a drum switch is the easier of the two options to implement...
There's quite a bit in the archives regarding the risks associated with running these in reverse. The headstock oil pump is driven off of a cam on the spindle and as i recall, the info in the archives warns that the oil pump doesn't fuction properly when the spindle is running in reverse (I guess the cam would have to be assymetrical for this to be true). Anyway, i'm not sure why you would want to run the spindle in reverse. I have a 16CY (1941) and it was not wired for reverse. I also have a mid 30s Reed Prentice, also no reverse.
 
There's quite a bit in the archives regarding the risks associated with running these in reverse. The headstock oil pump is driven off of a cam on the spindle and as i recall, the info in the archives warns that the oil pump doesn't fuction properly when the spindle is running in reverse (I guess the cam would have to be assymetrical for this to be true). Anyway, i'm not sure why you would want to run the spindle in reverse. I have a 16CY (1941) and it was not wired for reverse. I also have a mid 30s Reed Prentice, also no reverse.
I had no idea the headstock wouldn't oil. I'm sure someone else will chime in to confirm.

Why reverse? Lots of reasons. Probably why most maybe all modern lathes have reverse.
 
I had no idea the headstock wouldn't oil. I'm sure someone else will chime in to confirm.

Why reverse? Lots of reasons. Probably why most maybe all modern lathes have rev

There's quite a bit in the archives regarding the risks associated with running these in reverse. The headstock oil pump is driven off of a cam on the spindle and as i recall, the info in the archives warns that the oil pump doesn't fuction properly when the spindle is running in reverse (I guess the cam would have to be assymetrical for this to be true). Anyway, i'm not sure why you would want to run the spindle in reverse. I have a 16CY (1941) and it was not wired for reverse. I also have a mid 30s Reed Prentice, also no reverse.

You can see the cam lobe (in the headstock at any rate) and I don't think it is radically asymmetrical at all... Keither Fenner is also taking one apart on his you tube channel and you can see the entire spindle when he takes it out in one of his videos. By design a cam lobe would have to be a pretty radical one not to work in both directions and from what I've seen this one isn't in that category. I'm zero percent worried about that tbh. There is a much higher probably of these bijure oil systems suffering from a clog or a tired spring or even a worn cam than from running this in reverse. On top of that I'm essentially a hobbyist and maybe run a lathe in reverse once every two weeks for a short time.

The reason I would want to revise the switch to reverse is that sometimes I find it safer for me and/or the part to do an operation that way. Especially as I will not have a wide variety of tooling to start out with...
 
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The oil pump will work in reverse. The only danger I see to running it in reverse is any gunk in the headstock will be stirred up as the oil is getting flung in different directions.
I don't think there's too much you'll need reverse for as you have the lead screw reverse, aside from speeding up test fitting nuts :P
A drum switch will be simplest method. Reversing contactor is a lot more work.
 
The oil pump will work in reverse. The only danger I see to running it in reverse is any gunk in the headstock will be stirred up as the oil is getting flung in different directions.
I don't think there's too much you'll need reverse for as you have the lead screw reverse, aside from speeding up test fitting nuts :P
A drum switch will be simplest method. Reversing contactor is a lot more work.
I think 2 HP is the limit for a drum switch. Even at 1.5 HP they can get pretty chewed up.
 
While reading up on Monarch C types here earlier today, Iran across another thread here (that I now can't find again) that referred to this bracket as something like the "lead screw support bracket." Someone had the same question about it as I did, but in regards to their 16CY. They had two CYs one with it and one without. Does that sound plausible? I've seen much longer lathes with a movable bracket to support both the lead screw and feed rod, but would have thought this lathe wasn't long enough to warrant something like this. I also just noticed that probably because of the bracket the reversing rod doesn't have the knob that would kick the lathe out of the feed gear when it hit a stop... hmmm.

InkedPXL_20230216_233008822.jpg
 
While reading up on Monarch C types here earlier today, Iran across another thread here (that I now can't find again) that referred to this bracket as something like the "lead screw support bracket." Someone had the same question about it as I did, but in regards to their 16CY. They had two CYs one with it and one without. Does that sound plausible? I've seen much longer lathes with a movable bracket to support both the lead screw and feed rod, but would have thought this lathe wasn't long enough to warrant something like this. I also just noticed that probably because of the bracket the reversing rod doesn't have the knob that would kick the lathe out of the feed gear when it hit a stop... hmmm.

View attachment 388826
The cast extension and lead screw support is original. Your lathe has a angle bracket attached to the outside bolt which isn't original. This bracket looks like its made to act as a feed kickout feeding left

I would suspect the person with 2 CYs someone just removed the bracket and put the wiper on without it.

Your earlier post you mentioned that reverse lever is hitting this bracket. There is worm and rack that is probably 1 tooth out of time it's located under the cover plate on-top of the gearbox

What do you mean by kick out knob? It should be a pinch bolt clamp deal that goes ahead of the saddle
 
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The cast extension and lead screw support is original. Your lathe has a angle bracket attached to the outside bolt which isn't original. This bracket looks like its made to act as a feed kickout feeding left

I would suspect the person with 2 CYs someone just removed the bracket and put the wiper on without it.

Your earlier post you mentioned that reverse lever is hitting this bracket. There is worm and rack that is probably 1 tooth out of time it's located under the cover plate on-top of the gearbox

What do you mean by kick out knob? It should be a pinch bolt clamp deal that goes ahead of the saddle

That angle bracket may actually be original or part of the monarch dial indicator attachment "package"... I picked up a cool original one from guythatbrews and on a hunch I put it on and the angle bit is an exact match for the rod on the indicator. Either that or it is just an elegant home made version.

Good to know that is original though. I'll keep it on when I take the saddle off to clear the mess under it. I guess Monarch was really serious about keeping any mechanism flex to a minimum!

The "kick-out knob" (for lack of a better way to describe it) is what actually moves the lever when the pinch bolt hits it. You can see it here on the front of the saddle:

PXL_20230124_005901894.MP (Large).jpg

If they work the way I expect them to the rear one is missing and if you used the pinch bolt the saddle - or the handle more specifically - would just ram into it without doing anything. Given that extension is original I'm betting one would clear it if I took the bracket bit off the front.

Thanks for the heads up on the bracket being one tooth out. I'll have to pull that front panel when the time comes and I take the various rods off. This weekend I noticed that some of the rods are not flush with the end bearing support block as well, so I'm guessing someone messed with them and didn't get them back timed properly. Also the bushing on the saddle handle is very worn so I'm going to have to re-make them as well. There is a lot of slop in the handle on the rod... I'll have to beg/borrow/buy a 3/4" square broach to get that done though. lol

Thank you for the feedback!
 
A little more about the electrical reverse that has been discussed.

Not impossible a war time restriction on parts and features. Note page 2 of a 1944 brochure:

262.JPG

From this pub:

My 1946 12ckk has electric reverse, push button controls:

8.JPG

Oil pumps that do NOT work in reverse are gear type pumps. Suction is submerged, output typically moving upward away from sump. When this type is reversed, it attempts to suck from output side, and sucks air, thus not working.

Monarch oil pumps I know are not that type. They are basically the same pump as in a bijur one shot set up. Its a plunger that pushes in and out. Direction does not matter.

What I don't know, is if your lathe has the bigur plunger type of not. I don't know when it was instituted, and if all the heavier lathes have it. Easy to answer. Lift headstock cover and see if an arm is reacting off the spindle's 1st gear in. On my 12ckk the cam lobe is just slightly elliptical, circled in red:

15.JPG

If you read the brochure I linked, some of the descriptions on following pages mention an improved lube system as well. . . So this might suggest to me, that not all had that bijur style pump until later. I just don't know when that was.
 
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On a 1956 series 61 the cam lobe is on the opposite side of gear. Also just slightly elliptical. The camera view of all my headstock pics, its out of view, but I circled where its located. Also circled is the pivot point for the reaction arm to the bijur oil pump.

16.jpg
 
That angle bracket may actually be original or part of the monarch dial indicator attachment "package"... I picked up a cool original one from guythatbrews and on a hunch I put it on and the angle bit is an exact match for the rod on the indicator. Either that or it is just an elegant home made version.

Good to know that is original though. I'll keep it on when I take the saddle off to clear the mess under it. I guess Monarch was really serious about keeping any mechanism flex to a minimum!

The "kick-out knob" (for lack of a better way to describe it) is what actually moves the lever when the pinch bolt hits it. You can see it here on the front of the saddle:

View attachment 388985

If they work the way I expect them to the rear one is missing and if you used the pinch bolt the saddle - or the handle more specifically - would just ram into it without doing anything. Given that extension is original I'm betting one would clear it if I took the bracket bit off the front.

Thanks for the heads up on the bracket being one tooth out. I'll have to pull that front panel when the time comes and I take the various rods off. This weekend I noticed that some of the rods are not flush with the end bearing support block as well, so I'm guessing someone messed with them and didn't get them back timed properly. Also the bushing on the saddle handle is very worn so I'm going to have to re-make them as well. There is a lot of slop in the handle on the rod... I'll have to beg/borrow/buy a 3/4" square broach to get that done though. lol

Thank you for the feedback!

I think you lost me on the feed rod deal. The pinch clamp for the feed stop is viewable on feed rod in my photo attached.

Also you can see the micrometer depth stop which doesn't stop the feed, just a hard physical stop. *maybe there was a monarch attachment to disengage feed with mic stop I am not sure

Thinking about the leadscrew support bracket some more. I wouldn't be surprised if the main function it had was literally supporting the leadscrew when removing the end support or apron to save damaging the halfnut mechanism
 

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I think you lost me on the feed rod deal. The pinch clamp for the feed stop is viewable on feed rod in my photo attached.

Also you can see the micrometer depth stop which doesn't stop the feed, just a hard physical stop. *maybe there was a monarch attachment to disengage feed with mic stop I am not sure

Thinking about the leadscrew support bracket some more. I wouldn't be surprised if the main function it had was literally supporting the leadscrew when removing the end support or apron to save damaging the halfnut mechanism
Sorry, I meant the lead screw reverse rod. The picture is valid to the nut or flange bit (no idea what it is actually called, with have to look at the exploded parts diagram and see) that I was talking about though. There isn't one to automatically stop the feed on the side that the "support bracket" is on.

My understanding was that the longer lathes had the lead screw support brackets to prevent any flex in the lead screw when engaging the half nuts, so I just find it interesting they decided to put them on such "short" (in the grander scheme of things) lathes!
 
My 1946 12ckk has electric reverse, push button controls:

View attachment 389012

Oil pumps that do NOT work in reverse are gear type pumps. Suction is submerged, output typically moving upward away from sump. When this type is reversed, it attempts to suck from output side, and sucks air, thus not working.

Monarch oil pumps I know are not that type. They are basically the same pump as in a bijur one shot set up. Its a plunger that pushes in and out. Direction does not matter.

That button panel is reallly nicely integrated into that "newer" CKK. Pretty much where it is on the later 60/61 from the looks of it. It looks like a totally different (and very nice) casting in that area at that later stage too. Does it have the lead screw reverse on the apron or just the headstock? The tel-tale "hump" on the top of the feed gears doesn't seem to be there is why I ask!

I'll get pictures from inside my headstock. 99.9% sure it is a bijur that I will need to fish out of there to clean and de-clog...

I've already decided to try and modify the one in the apron to allow it to work manually as well as off the cam for the saddle manual-auto feed. Not 100% sure the design in my head will work, but I'll be positive and say I think it will. lol
 








 
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